1680 White Dial Question

[roro]

Hello All,

I'm new to the forum but have been collecting for a number of years. I would like to know if anyone knows the various dial makers for the 1680 white sub. The image below shows the four recognized dial variants (courtesy of VRF and watchblog.dk).



From what I have gathered by reading various info on the net:
Mark I: Lemerich
Mark II: Beyeler
Mark III: ?
Mark IV: ?

Here's my watch below. It is the Mark IV dial in a 5.5 mil serial. It has the more pronounced open 6's:



Here's a post with the same dial in a 5.8 mil serial: http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...e+dial+archive

Thanks to anyone who can provide good info which would avoid me pulling the hands and dial off the watch. .

Kayvan

[roro]

No one :-(

[Rickster]

Not sure I understand what your asking? You seem to have figured it out? Hopefully someone will reply

[springer]

I saw your post on the VRF and found it interesting. I have a vintage 1978 Submariner 1680 and my dial is not like the one you pictured. The dial on my watch pictured is a one owner and is still original to the watch.

[roro]

Hi Springer,

Thanks for replying. Very nice patina on your 1680! I guess your's would be the Mark III dial. What are the first digits of the case serial number on your watch?

As with Rolex, there's always overlap. There's currently a 5.4mil serial watch on e-bay with the Mark IV dial like mine and in the VRF dial archive there's a 5.8mil serial as well.

Kayvan

[roro]

Originally Posted by Rickster

Not sure I understand what your asking? You seem to have figured it out? Hopefully someone will reply

I'm looking for info on who made the 1680 white Mark III and Mark IV dials for Rolex (Singer, Stern, Beyeler, Lemerich, etc.)

[marcello pisani]

paging Markku Alen ( "volevo far il fico ma ho fatto solo casino " ... that sounds something like " I wanted to be smart .. but I have just created a lot of confusion " LLLOOLLL )
here are the white dials for 1680 :
1) mk1 ( Lemrich ) ; note the "centered L" under the Rolex crown :




2) mk2 ( Beyerle ); the letter L is not centered :



3) mk3 ( Lemrich ) ; also in this one the L is still centered :



(this is Markku ... )

thanks to SM for the 3rd picture.

[roro]

Que casino vero ;-)

Thanks for the info. We're almost there. What about the Mark IV? Who makes that one? That's the one I'm really interested in!

[Frogman4me]

Mine is a 5.3

[springer]

Originally Posted by roro

Hi Springer,

Thanks for replying. Very nice patina on your 1680! I guess your's would be the Mark III dial. What are the first digits of the case serial number on your watch?

As with Rolex, there's always overlap. There's currently a 5.4mil serial watch on e-bay with the Mark IV dial like mine and in the VRF dial archive there's a 5.8mil serial as well.

Kayvan

Kayvan, my serial number would be 58XXXXX for the 1680.

[roro]

Thanks guys. The plot thickens...

IMHO I think there could be a revamping of Mark X versions necessary as:

1. Frogman's Rolex has a Mark I dial according to the list and yet the 5.3mil serial would put it in the '77-'78 range. So if we go according to the dial list it should have at least a Mark II I believe.
2. Springer has a Mark III and his serial is 5.8mi which would put it at late '78 to early '79 so looks OK according to the list.
3. I have a Mark IV with a 5.5mil which is older than Springer's (mid '78).
4. The other Mark IV dial belonging to Beaumont Miller and catalogued in the VRF dial archive is a 5.8mil so late '78 early '79.
5. There's a Mark IV 5.4mil on e-bay right now so mid '78 like mine.

The 1680 was made till 1980.

Then again, I guess there's always the daunting Rolex overlap issue...

Anyone else who has white 1680 knowledge and would like to contribute is welcome.

Kayvan

[Beaumont Miller II]

I have the same MK IV dial on my 1680. It is in the dial archive on VRF. Before I bought the watch I did some checking around and this is what I found. It is one of the least common 1680 white dial variations. Both Eric Ku and Andrew Shear have sold 1680's with this dial variation. Watches were complete with box and papers. So, authenticity/originality not an issue for me. Some think this dial is a service dial but on the packages just mentioned, service papers weren't shown. I have seen pictures of a luminova version of this dial.

[roro]

Thanks for chiming in Beaumont. You're just the guy I wanted to hear from since you started this mess in the first place

Any idea what the serials were on Andrew and Eric's watches?

I'm thinking of compiling some info on this dial as it seems to be a rare one. I think maybe people see it as a service dial because it looks so different to the others. I also admit that when I first saw it I had my doubts because of the open 6's and fonts.

I saw a couple others on Chrono24 but unfortunately not much serial number info.

Anwyay, that's the fun of Rolex vintage. Some new piece of info always pops up!

[diverdick]

There is certainly a clearing trend on the variety front but the storm has not passed regarding date ranges.

[Beaumont Miller II]

If you wanted me to add to the confusion, all you had to do was PM me... I changed my post to reflect the fact that Andrew has updated his website and the pic is no longer there. I think both watches were from around 1978 as is mine. My gut feeling is that this dial was the one or one of the ones used toward the end of the production run. I am not convinced it is a service dial because I have never seen them on earlier serial numbers like three and four million. When I posted the question on VRF, I didn't get much help. I think because compared to it's red counterparts, the white dial version doesn't spark as much passion.

[roro]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

When I posted the question on VRF, I didn't get much help. I think because compared to it's red counterparts, the white dial version doesn't spark as much passion.

Thanks Beaumont. Yes, this is a pitty that there's racism against the whites within the collector community

That being said, it makes things more interesting for us to investigate the reality. Whatever the case may be, the Mark IV has the best open 6's of any white dial. I think we should start calling it the Mark 3.5 since most of the watches we've been seeing tend to be in the 5.3-5.8 serial range.

Diver Dick,

Your's is clearly a Mark I dial but the 5.97 serial range puts it at 1979-80. To me there's zero question as to its authenticity being such pristine B+P piece. As I've said earlier, my conclusion is to question the commonly accepted knowledge concerning white dial "Mark" numbers.

Sweet watch by the way!

[marcello pisani]

I have simple written that in mho there are 3 different dials contemporary to the time of production for white 1680 .
in any case the only thing to do is to check how is punched the back of the dial : this will say above any doubt if a dial is a replacement or not.

[roro]

Thanks Beaumont. Yes, this is a pitty that there's racism against the whites within the collector community

That being said, it makes things more interesting for us to investigate the reality.

Whatever the case may be, the Mark IV has the coolest open 6's of any white dial. Maybe we should start calling it the Mark 3.5 since most of the watches we've been seeing tend to be in the 5.3-5.8 serial range.

Diver Dick,

Your's seems to clearly be a Mark I dial but the 5.97M serial range puts it at 1979! To me there's zero question as to its authenticity being such pristine B+P piece. Sweet watch by the way!

Regardless of this Mark IV issue, it seems that we should question the commonly accepted knowledge concerning white dial "Mark" numbers.

Marcello,

What should one see at the back of such a replacement dial? I am trying to avoid ripping the hands and the dial off my watch but if I have to I will.

[marcello pisani]

replacement dials can be punched "ROLEX" in many different ways depending on the time of production.
in any case your dial looks like the mk3 I have posted.

[Beaumont Miller II]

In the OP original pic the L is further to the left under the coronet and the HRO in CHRONOMETER line up over the CER in CERTIFIED. Marcello you may be right. Perhaps a pic of the back of the dial will uncover some clues. Go for it Roro.

[roro]

That's right Beaumont, fully agree on the L and HRO CER alignment.

Other Mark IV vs. Mark III differences I see:

1. The coronet is different altogether
2. The Swiss - T < 25 is closer to the tick marks

And last but not least:

3. The VERY open 6's

That is not to refute that it could be a replacement but IMHO it is not the same as a Mark III.

To add more fuel to the fire, I've combed Chrono24 and e-bay and found a handful of examples of this dial (amonst many white 1680's) and they all seem to be in the 1978 serial range. Strange coincidence if its a service dial...

Thanks for the tip Marcello.

I'll see about taking the dial off in the next few days (to add some suspense). If its a service dial, I'm buying drinks next time you're in Paris otherwise its a nice bottle of Valpolicella in Italy

Kayvan

[Frogman4me]

My 1680 I bought from Eric Ku and I was told that it was all original and dead stock. I fully believe it left Rolex factory with the MKI dial and a 5.3 serial case.

[red1108nyc]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

Mine is a 5.3

Youza.. beautiful watch my friend... NICE!

Best,

Fred

[roro]

Ditto. That watch is crisp Frogman! Dead stock is right.

Be back with more info tomorrow.

Kayvan

[springer]

Here is one more for you to look at and see if you can tell what it is. I'll check back later and post what I know about this dial.

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by red1108nyc

Youza.. beautiful watch my friend... NICE!

Best,

Fred

Originally Posted by roro

Ditto. That watch is crisp Frogman! Dead stock is right.

Be back with more info tomorrow.

Kayvan

Thanks guys

Here is a couple more

[Beaumont Miller II]

Here is mine with the black nato band:

[roro]

Hey Beaumont, how come you didn't pick up a service bezel with your service dial? LOL

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

Thanks guys

Here is a couple more

Stop it, Frogman. You're making me sick. Those lugs, just look at those lugs

[roro]

Originally Posted by springer

Here is one more for you to look at and see if you can tell what it is. I'll check back later and post what I know about this dial.

Good one Springer,

I've seen this dial before. To me, it looks like either an early 80's dial or a luminova service dial. Maybe this should be called the "Mark V"?

Here are a couple more of these "Mark V" dials I've dug up:

A. http://www.chrono24.fr/rolex/rolex-s...ch%2Findex.htm

B. http://www.chrono24.fr/rolex/submari...ResultIndex=76



Looking forward to having your thoughts.

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by roro

Good one Springer,

I've seen this dial before. To me, it looks like either an early 80's dial or a luminova service dial. Maybe this should be called the "Mark V"?

Here are a couple more of these "Mark V" dials I've dug up:

A. http://www.chrono24.fr/rolex/rolex-s...ch%2Findex.htm

B. http://www.chrono24.fr/rolex/submari...ResultIndex=76




Looking forward to having your thoughts.

later replacement dial also for me ( see for ex. the typical shape of the letter "f" used also ( from the 2d half of the 80s on ) in dials for 16660/16600 and in replacement dials for white 1665 ,
such as :


( Lemrich dial btw )