Achtung, anyone who cares about punched papers

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by jedly1

I think the real question is wether Dave rosenburg is a persona or just a patsy for someone else ... and from replies here You obviously missed the unedited version of the post and it's allegations and who they were about . And to be 100000% clear it wasn't andrew shear.

As not all evidence is available publicly the post was edited to reflect what facts could be made public to support the allegations.

Hi Jed, I guess I missed the unedited version, am sure that making the unedited version of the post publicly available as also the evidence that you said is not public yet would help us make the connection you are inferring and help the wider collector community too.

[toph]

Originally Posted by cruvon

Hi Jed, I guess I missed the unedited version, am sure that making the unedited version of the post publicly available as also the evidence that you said is not public yet would help us make the connection you are inferring and help the wider collector community too.

yes i woudl be very interested to see/ hear this too

[bb3188]

I dont think it fair to put Jed in this position.....
he is a Mod on VRF and holds certain responsiblities.....
I think the answers sometimes lies between reading between the lines.... sorry to be so cryptic.....
best
Mark

[Submarino]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

It is actually quite sad IMHO and gives the hobby a black eye. In this business if you can find one person you can trust-good for you--if you can find 2 or 3--even better. The dark side of the vintage world though is not good for any of us and no matter what anyone says--it affects all. I think most of us got into this for the pure love and passion of collecting vintage watches and not the filthy greed that has seeped into it. What a shame---but one I think the vintage world will feel for sometime as many regular folks will have lost trust.

x2

I personally feel that I need to be 1000 times more cautious as I am not an expert as some of you guys. Still learning a lot every day.

[toph]

Originally Posted by bb3188

I dont think it fair to put Jed in this position.....
he is a Mod on VRF and holds certain responsiblities.....
I think the answers sometimes lies between reading between the lines.... sorry to be so cryptic.....
best
Mark

agreed, but obviously our idea of whom his responsibilities and knowledge are meant to benefit are different

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by cruvon

Hi Jed, I guess I missed the unedited version, am sure that making the unedited version of the post publicly available as also the evidence that you said is not public yet would help us make the connection you are inferring and help the wider collector community too.

there are reasons the original post was edited, and will, it seems for now, remain so. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out though....

[Michael M.]

I still value box & papers, but would not pay a large premium for one, unless it was from Eric Ku, Jed, Andrew Shear, etc.

[Tudor66]

Originally Posted by toph

agreed, but obviously our idea of whom his responsibilities and knowledge are meant to benefit are different

Same here, the AD's offering looks better every day....

[toph]

Originally Posted by jedly1

there are reasons the original post was edited, and will, it seems for now, remain so. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out though....

with all due respect, it is hard for some of us to work out which posts have and have not been edited /removed as there are hundreds of replies too. i presume you must be saying that the same guy has more than one account? if it is so obvious why cant you just say?
Please dont think i am knocking anything you do in any way shape or form as as a mod you have a lot of resonsibilty and often a thankless task.
I have highlighted and spoken to comexfranken about his listings on multiple occasions for months for his mix and match arrangements.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by toph

agreed, but obviously our idea of whom his responsibilities and knowledge are meant to benefit are different

the original post was edited because whilst i believe it was in principal correct it did it in a partially unsubstantiated way, and until PROVEN it is technically only an allegation... there are far wider implications than just throwing it out there on forums, not least of which many are legal....

being aware of something and knowing something are very different from proving something in law.....and blindly throwing around direct statements can impact heavily on any outcomes that may be yet reached between buyer and sellers and from authorities.

some people have gone out of their way to provide the community with as much of a warning as they can, some are choosing not to listen...as indeed some did when for example you, 'other's and many more have raised concerns in the past apparently.

[red57]

I have no dog in this fight but I am shocked at how some on the "54" are explaining away or ignoring the facts that a expensive watch was bought without box or papers and then like magic it reappears with box and papers at a higher price... DIRTY!

Also who is John Ireland and why is he ignoring the facts explained and defending the seller?

[jedly1]

the only post that was edited really was the first one ...and it was several hours until that happend ..which unfortunatley meant many got to read it :)....before that happened.....

in any other circumstance , if we weren't taking it as seriously as we are it would have gone in its entirity until some very hard evidence was put up and as you will note none of the deals took place on VRF so we are for once considering this serious enough to discuss in breach of our existing rules that we don't discuss outside deals.

[toph]

Originally Posted by jedly1

What is that supposed to mean exactly?

the original post was edited because whilst i believe it was in principal correct it did it in a partially unsubstantiated way, and until PROVEN it is technically only an allegation... there are far wider implications than just throwing it out there on forums, not least of which many are legal....

being aware of something and knowing something are very different from proving something in law.....and blindly throwing around direct statements can impact heavily on any outcomes that may be yet reached between buyer and sellers and from authorities.

some people have gone out of their way to provide the community with as much of a warning as they can, some are choosing not to listen...as indeed some did when for example you, 'other's and many more have raised concerns in the past apparently.

My initial quote meant that i think you are doing more use than harm to allow allegations to be in full view so they can rebutted in full view rather than removing them? That is how the law works IMHO.
Innocent until proven guilty agreed but just because an allegation may turn out unsubsantiated in a court room does not mean it is not valid or helpful to the rest of the case.
Finally i do not know ,what these now removed, allegations were so i am partly in the dark discussing this with you.

[greekbum]

I would like to add that its very naive to think that this is some new discovery.(recreated papers etc) We had a vintage Rolex boom. Watches went from around $100 to some over $100k.There was and still is demand for these watches and the demand far exceeds the supply. Fake dials,cases,parts etc its a BIG BUSINESS dont take my word on it look around there are forums and sites that cater to this. Now the dealer or dealers who were mentioned on the other site know all about what was written. I am sure the emails and phone doesnt stop.If innocent I am sure they will defend their trusted names and reputations. The 1 who tried IMHO didnt do a convincing job.

[jedly1]

the funny thing is that for every post like yours saying all should be revealed ..there is another post or email saying that VRF isnt a court of law and we shouldnt be allowing ANY unproven allegation to be made....

damned if you do, damned if you dont.

[toph]

Originally Posted by jedly1

the funny thing is that for every post like yours saying all should be revealed ..there is another post or email saying that VRF isnt a court of law and we shouldnt be allowing ANY unproven allegation to be made....

damned if you do, damned if you dont.

I have given my opinion. i asked to know about the comment that was removed. I was told i will not find out.
You are in a position where you have to view all sides of an argument and decide what is the best course of action for VRF, not for me. That said you can never please everyone

[jedly1]

pm sent

[CaveDiver]

Okay, let’s quit pussyfooting around.. Alleged is:
Mark Lerman = Comexfan ~ vintage1665 = Dave Rosenberg.. Is this clear enough?

[tuonor]

this post alludes to the original accusation that was edited by the mods:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...Rolex+Ephemera...

basically the question is how the watch moved from one of those mentioned to the other (perhaps they are just aliases) and at what point it picked up the suspect papers.

EDIT: cavediver types faster than i can. i blame the ipad...

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by jedly1

the funny thing is that for every post like yours saying all should be revealed ..there is another post or email saying that VRF isnt a court of law and we shouldnt be allowing ANY unproven allegation to be made....

damned if you do, damned if you dont.

True Jed, but as ChrisTOPHer(toph) pointed out, since a conspiracy theory is already put forth making serious allegations that affect the vintage community, it would be great if we could get to the bottom of it with the evidence available made public by substantiating it, so that for one, we get to see the vintage worlds "Underbelly"( have been watching that program on TV toomuch;)) and secondly, for the good of the future of the vintage hobby as a whole. I think such evidence if without doubt would stand in a court of law too so I don't believe anyone has to fear that, the main thing is bringing out the truth!

[toph]

Originally Posted by jedly1

pm sent

Thank you

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

Okay, let’s quit pussyfooting around.. Alleged is:
Mark Lerman = Comexfan ~ vintage1665 = Dave Rosenberg.. Is this clear enough?

Originally Posted by tuonor

this post alludes to the original accusation that was edited by the mods:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...Rolex+Ephemera...

basically the question is how the watch moved from one of those mentioned to the other (perhaps they are just aliases) and at what point it picked up the suspect papers.

EDIT: cavediver types faster than i can. i blame the ipad...

[greekbum]

That people have added papers to a watch is not a new thing. Its happened, has happened and will happen again IMHO. The market place wants boxed sets and there isnt enough to go around. If you bought a watch from anybody and feel that its not right you have every right to bring it out and lay your evidence for all to see. Anybody?

[Submarino]

Originally Posted by greekbum

That people have added papers to a watch is not a new thing. Its happened, has happened and will happen again IMHO. The market place wants boxed sets and there isnt enough to go around. If you bought a watch from anybody and feel that its not right I guess you have every right to bring it out and lay your evidence for all to see. Anybody?

x 2

[skyedog]

Originally Posted by conrail

There has been some unsavory activities going on. Hopefully you all read this over at VRF, but in case you didn't, here are the threads in chronological order:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...t+added+papers

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...sary+attention

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...m+has+NO+paper

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...re+also+coming...

yep.. I have been follow that thread on day one! very exciting to watch! and WOW..... someone got busted!! honestly is the key in this business!!

[cgjane]

I am not surprised with the amount of money that is involved.

Starts with papers then on to faking dials and parts...easy way to make a Franken Vintage "legit"

[psv]

Truly sad to see this, but I'm glad it is out in the open and that the OP pointed it out, as I don't frequent VRF on a daily basis.

Equally said to me is the there are people on VRF who very aggressively defend dealers/sellers right to do whatever they want, and also having the opnion that watches can be cobbleded together from various parts and this is OK to sell without specifying at the time of sale. Some call them Frankenwatches, others not just because all original parts were used.

All in all sad state of affairs on the vintage market. I expect it to get worse...

[TurboWatch]

The vintage market isn't what it used to be.

There are a few trustworthy dealers out there, but the unscrupulous ones are plentiful. They are so blatant these day, so buyers beware. The new wave of collectors certainly have a lot to do with it. They tend to jump in head first and asking questions later. If only their treat buying a vintage watch as buying a used car, and do their dds. Got to do your test drive, check under the hood, etc... and don't ever forget the saying: "never trust a used car salesman".

So learn all you can about a watch before buying it. Even if your watch comes with full B/P, call and verify if the dealer stated on your paper is indeed legit.

Be an educated consumer !

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by psv

All in all sad state of affairs on the vintage market. I expect it to get worse...

As far as fakes etc is concerned the vintage market is very small when compared to the modern market IMHO.1% I say.

[Jagatai]

I too have followed the thread. I always wondered how the particular dealer had 95 percent of his watches have the "complete set." that plus I would never buy a vintage or any rolex for that matter from eBay.

I've only bought from the most esteemed dealers thanks to my asking more experienced collectors on here for help and advice.

Truly sent a shudder down my spine. If I didn't have TRF, I probably would have gotten one of those "complete sets." I would have been so hurt I'd go nuts.

I'm happy with my one 5513 with paper from jedly.

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by TurboWatch

The vintage market isn't what it used to be.

There are a few trustworthy dealers out there, but the unscrupulous ones are plentiful. They are so blatant these day, so buyers beware. The new wave of collectors certainly have a lot to do with it. They tend to jump in head first and asking questions later. If only their treat buying a vintage watch as buying a used car, and do their dds. Got to do your test drive, check under the hood, etc... and don't ever forget the saying: "never trust a used car salesman".

So learn all you can about a watch before buying it. Even if your watch comes with full B/P, call and verify if the dealer stated on your paper is indeed legit.

Be an educated consumer !

+1, very true!