Why do people find patina beautiful

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by speedolex

But when the fad dies, not so sure that the market won't crash hard. When the fringe jackets and mouse-nest beards are shaven and they move on to mass consumerism, they'll want new and shiny things just like all the prior generations did. Baby Boomers redux.

I can not wait to be honest for this to happen.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by watchgroupcorp

I personally believe that we are driven to love patina by those geniuses who (behind the scenes) have orchestrated converting horological tools into collectible pieces of art. In other words... skilled marketing designed to create value for modern versions of watches has resulted (inadvertently) in tremendous value being added to vintage pieces. That added value causes us to find beauty in them. The result (imho) is reduced sales of new watches. (Down 30% year over year based on March numbers). Watches have become cooler than trading cards ever were when I was a kid.

Museum purchases that set records with the goal of driving sales of new watches at authorized dealers has inexplicably resulted in an explosive growth in the secondary and vintage marketplaces - which reduces demand for newly produced watches. Just my opinion.

Very true.

If I add up the sum total of all the Rolexes I've purchased from 1985 to 2016, that would be 12 of them and only 2 were purchased new and only 1 of those was from an AD. So of, say, $75,000 I've spent on Rolexes in 30 years the Rolex corporation has only gotten $8,000 of revenue out of me.

And in all of my Rolex buys, only once was I trying to save money on a new watch (my 16610 Submariner via a grey dealer). The rest of the time and money was spent obtaining older versions of current Rolex watches that I simply found more exciting than the current models.

The unfortunate blowback of Rolex construction quality and Rolex classic design in a product category with no marked innovation is that the older examples survive, thrive, and have a more interesting story to tell.

[watchgroupcorp]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Very true.

If I add up the sum total of all the Rolexes I've purchased from 1985 to 2016, that would be 12 of them and only 2 were purchased new and only 1 of those was from an AD. So of, say, $75,000 I've spent on Rolexes in 30 years the Rolex corporation has only gotten $8,000 of revenue out of me.

And in all of my Rolex buys, only once was I trying to save money on a new watch (my 16610 Submariner via a grey dealer). The rest of the time and money was spent obtaining older versions of current Rolex watches that I simply found more exciting than the current models.

The unfortunate blowback of Rolex construction quality and Rolex classic design in a product category with no marked innovation is that the older examples survive, thrive, and have a more interesting story to tell.

Rolex will have to start a "Certified Pre-owned" via ADs soon. They can't keep producing such high quantities of watches when the main market for their products is the secondary market.

Or what else can they do? Stop servicing watches of a certain age? They already do this to an extent, and there are many capable watchmakers out there... so that idea wouldn't work.

What about ONLY putting Service Dials on all vintage watches that are sent to RSC? This move would devalue those watches.

I am thinking that they must either devalue the vintage pieces by putting service dials, etc. on them or maybe they need to come out with brand new versions of the 6538/5510; 6536/5508, 5512; 6541; 5514; 5517, etc, etc... with nice Tempus Machina style dials. Then they would be competing head to head with their own vintage market. Interesting topic...

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by watchgroupcorp

....or maybe they need to come out with brand new versions of the 6538/5510; 6536/5508, 5512; 6541; 5514; 5517, etc, etc... Then they would be competing head to head with their own vintage market. Interesting topic...

Well, had Rolex offered up a 36mm reissue of the 1016 with it's matte dial I'd have given them $7,000 in an eyeblink instead of some civilian who met me in Starbucks with a vintage example. Instead of offering me the sizes and dials I want, they drive me away.

My opinion, Rolex has lost their way with the Sport models. Too big for their bracelets, too blingy for their niche. It's like the whole line has turned into derivatives of the Datejust. Rolex chased the oversized craze and missed out on the retro craze. If sales are down it's their own doing frankly.

[Toronto Soup King]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Well, had Rolex offered up a 36mm reissue of the 1016 with its matte dial I'd have given them $7,000 in an eyeblink instead of some civilian who met me in Starbucks with a vintage example. Instead of offering me the sizes and dials I want, they drive me away.

My opinion, Rolex has lost their way with the Sport models. Too big for their bracelets, too blingy for their niche. It's like the whole line has turned into derivatives of the Datejust. Rolex chased the oversized craze and missed out on the retro craze. If sales are down it's their own doing frankly.

I agree - I was on the cusp of buying a new rhodium-dial 36mm OP from my local AD but instead chose to buy a 1018 from a member here - the 1018 case is far more to my taste for a watch of those dimensions. But the ONLY new models that had any appeal for me were that 116000 and, if a midlife crisis strikes, the 116719BLRO. All others were less attractive to me than their vintage equivalents, and, consequently, all my Rolexes are vintage models...I can't see that changing.

[Cbir]

Also a fan of the older models, but equally some of the newer. Patina is like a badge of time that represents the quality of the craft and workmanship invested into a Rolex.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by Cbir

Also a fan of the older models, but equally some of the newer. Patina is like a badge of time that represents the quality of the craft and workmanship invested into a Rolex.

I agree, and I have a few Rolexes with decent patina, I understand fully what you're saying.

But I also subscribe to the view that it is also the design itself that does that same representation of time, quality, and craftsmanship too. My 1016 up there, they don't make that any more. The dial is vintage, the clasp is vintage, the bracelet is vintage, the crystal is vintage. It was designed in a different era, its DNA is from 1960, the Explorer redesign of 1990 was a dramatic departure, the differences are very obvious, it's not down to subtlety.

An absolutely factory-correct mint condition 1967 Corvette Stingray presents from a long-ago era without the need of faded paint or cracked seats to support its case; the design itself tells the story and provides the badge of time we all admire.

[figsgrandpa]

This is my 1967 5513 which I’ve owned since 1973. The patina on the hands and hour plots reminds me of everything this watch and I went through together, and I find it a little funny that age has made my watch face darker at the same time it made my hair whiter.

One more note about patina: When it was first erected, the Statue of Liberty’s copper skin gleamed like a brand new penny. Over the years, oxidation first darkened it, and then gave it the characteristic green patina we all know. It is possible to restore it to its original copper color, and preserve it so it wouldn’t oxidize, but would anyone really want to see them do that?

[Trurolexer]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

One of the best DRSD I ever seen

[motoikkyu]

I shop the secondary market for nearly every aspect of my life. This is not just cheapness, although my stingy nature plays a role. Why limit myself to what is available in the mall or retail department store when I have the entire 80-year history of consumer goods to play in? Example: cookware. Every few years, a new craze, an "ultimate" product -teflon-aluminum to cephalon to ceramic, none of them last and health benefits are found to be questionable. I cook in 100-year-old cast iron: the health benefits are documented and it holds the heat evenly.
Vintage watches are the same thing: you get to choose from your favorite designs of the entire previous CENTURY of production. Yeah, some of them have patina, sometimes that adds to the charm, sometimes it detracts (a little). It's just part of the game: if it looks too horrible, you can update or restore. I've had cast-iron bead-blasted and had new "patina" on it within a fortnight.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by figsgrandpa

This is my 1967 5513 which I’ve owned since 1973. The patina on the hands and hour plots reminds me of everything this watch and I went through together, and I find it a little funny that age has made my watch face darker at the same time it made my hair whiter.

One more note about patina: When it was first erected, the Statue of Liberty’s copper skin gleamed like a brand new penny. Over the years, oxidation first darkened it, and then gave it the characteristic green patina we all know. It is possible to restore it to its original copper color, and preserve it so it wouldn’t oxidize, but would anyone really want to see them do that?

The Statue of Liberty underwent a complete restoration in 1986, it took 2 years, they cleaned and preserved the exterior oxidized copper, rebuilt the entire interior supporting structure, and replaced most of her upright arm and the entire torch.

Are you saying that it would have been better not to preserve the outer layer and let it rot away, not to repair the upright arm and let it sag further away from the crown, and let the torch erode and eventually fall off into the Hudson River for the sake of complete originality and authenticity?

Because that's what's happening in the world of vintage Rolex collecting. Some dials, not yours, are well past patina and are heading straight towards nuclear. Some hands, not yours, are so skeletonized they are hard to see. Some bezels, not yours, are so ghosted they have lost all their color. Some cases, not yours, have been so polished they are thin and frail.

It's one thing to say "let the Statue of Liberty remain green because the patina looks nice" and quite another to say "she wasn't designed to last 200 years so no restoration allowed, whatever happens, happens" and witness a beloved global icon turn to dust. That's what this thread is about.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by Trurolexer

One of the best DRSD I ever seen

Now that I know more about the patina market and how some of these dials are artificially aged in kitchen ovens or tinted with chemicals and sold for big bucks I have to question just how 'perfect' that dial is.

[jdmi32]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Now that I know more about the patina market and how some of these dials are artificially aged in kitchen ovens or tinted with chemicals and sold for big bucks I have to question just how 'perfect' that dial is.

I don't want to jump to any conclusions but are you suggesting that the dial of this wonderful DRSD might have been tampered with? If you knew who the owner was, I doubt you would have made such a statement.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by jdmi32

I don't want to jump to any conclusions but are you suggesting that the dial of this wonderful DRSD might have been tampered with? If you knew who the owner was, I doubt you would have made such a statement.

I don't know the owner, and I'm no expert, but to me that dial looks too perfect. Wouldn't one expect the non-lume portions of the dial to be eroding at the same rate as the lume? All the other watches showing patina in this thread show their imperfections, this one doesn't. There were comments this week after the Hodinkee article in this and other forums that virtually overnight all the NOS Rolex sport dials vanished and scores of patina dials flooded the market as a few hours in an oven could bring 2x the price. Are you saying that's not true and that none of us here could have purchased one of those unknowingly?

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Now that I know more about the patina market and how some of these dials are artificially aged in kitchen ovens or tinted with chemicals and sold for big bucks I have to question just how 'perfect' that dial is.

You go ahead and question it, then!

It looks sublime to me, but you're the expert here, it appears.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

You go ahead and question it, then!

It looks sublime to me, but you're the expert here, it appears.

Actually, if you're paying attention, I'm all for using NOS or service dials to restore vintage watches to their original glory. And since a few shades of beige seem to make you patina folks all weak in the knees, have at it, it's fine with me, it's not for me to tell anyone how to wear their watch. But an element of authenticity has been called into play here, I was challenged on my service dial, one should be able to challenge on patina too.

That aside, can someone tell me how you can tell real aged patina from artificial patina? Can one put a dial under a microscope and see the tell-tale signs of factual patina or artificial patina or is it just accepted that beige is beige and it looks old so it's all good? We hold other parts of the watch to a very high standard, what's the ruling on lume patina authenticity when the dial it's sitting on looks brand new and the combination of the two can make the watch worth 2x its normal value?

[figsgrandpa]

Originally Posted by speedolex

The Statue of Liberty underwent a complete restoration in 1986, it took 2 years, they cleaned and preserved the exterior oxidized copper, rebuilt the entire interior supporting structure, and replaced most of her upright arm and the entire torch.

Are you saying that it would have been better not to preserve the outer layer and let it rot away, not to repair the upright arm and let it sag further away from the crown, and let the torch erode and eventually fall off into the Hudson River for the sake of complete originality and authenticity?

Because that's what's happening in the world of vintage Rolex collecting. Some dials, not yours, are well past patina and are heading straight towards nuclear. Some hands, not yours, are so skeletonized they are hard to see. Some bezels, not yours, are so ghosted they have lost all their color. Some cases, not yours, have been so polished they are thin and frail.

It's one thing to say "let the Statue of Liberty remain green because the patina looks nice" and quite another to say "she wasn't designed to last 200 years so no restoration allowed, whatever happens, happens" and witness a beloved global icon turn to dust. That's what this thread is about.

No, that's not what I was saying. As you noted, when they repaired the Statue, they "cleaned and preserved" the exterior oxidized copper. They didn't try to restore it to its like-new condition. They also artificially aged the copper sheets that they used to repair the arm, and any other places where the copper had to be replaced, to match the appearance of the rest of the Statue. My point was would we have wanted them to restore the Statue to its original appearance? They could have removed all the patina and made it bright and shiny again.

I'm not a patina purist. I can appreciate the need for repairs and preservation. I was merely commenting that I like the patina on my watch. Others commented that they preferred theirs looking like it was brand new. Everyone is entitled to their own taste and preferences.

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by figsgrandpa

I'm not a patina purist. I can appreciate the need for repairs and preservation. I was merely commenting that I like the patina on my watch. Others commented that they preferred theirs looking like it was brand new. Everyone is entitled to their own taste and preferences.

Agreed. I'm a patina fan, I think in most cases it really adds some nostalgic cool to a Rolex. But in some cases I think a fresh dial with bright white markers looks best, it's situational.

Your watch is beautiful. Wear in good health!

[cajuntiger]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Now that I know more about the patina market and how some of these dials are artificially aged in kitchen ovens or tinted with chemicals and sold for big bucks I have to question just how 'perfect' that dial is.

really? I think its you need to stop skipping your meds.

[Qinhan]

Originally Posted by motoikkyu

I shop the secondary market for nearly every aspect of my life. This is not just cheapness, although my stingy nature plays a role. Why limit myself to what is available in the mall or retail department store when I have the entire 80-year history of consumer goods to play in? Example: cookware. Every few years, a new craze, an "ultimate" product -teflon-aluminum to cephalon to ceramic, none of them last and health benefits are found to be questionable. I cook in 100-year-old cast iron: the health benefits are documented and it holds the heat evenly.
Vintage watches are the same thing: you get to choose from your favorite designs of the entire previous CENTURY of production. Yeah, some of them have patina, sometimes that adds to the charm, sometimes it detracts (a little). It's just part of the game: if it looks too horrible, you can update or restore. I've had cast-iron bead-blasted and had new "patina" on it within a fortnight.

Interesting thread with a number of different discussions going on. I just had to say that I love cooking with my 120 year old cast iron skillet. It's a thing of beauty and, yes, definitely has it's own wabi sabi.

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by speedolex

Actually, if you're paying attention, I'm all for using NOS or service dials to restore vintage watches to their original glory. And since a few shades of beige seem to make you patina folks all weak in the knees, have at it, it's fine with me, it's not for me to tell anyone how to wear their watch. But an element of authenticity has been called into play here, I was challenged on my service dial, one should be able to challenge on patina too.

That aside, can someone tell me how you can tell real aged patina from artificial patina? Can one put a dial under a microscope and see the tell-tale signs of factual patina or artificial patina or is it just accepted that beige is beige and it looks old so it's all good? We hold other parts of the watch to a very high standard, what's the ruling on lume patina authenticity when the dial it's sitting on looks brand new and the combination of the two can make the watch worth 2x its normal value?

You really love the click of your own keyboard, don't you? You'd think this was your thread. You've certainly attempted to take possession of it

In response to your rude and unwarranted comment, my attention-span is just fine, although I'm way past my tolerance threshold with your seemingly endless torrent of... nonsense. I've enjoyed posts by other contributors, however.

Thirdly, what has your standard service dial got to do with the genuine and beautiful patinated vintage dial about whose authenticity you are skeptical? Nothing whatsoever. You've attempted to justify and wriggle out from underneath the dubious question-mark you raised over the dial by some tenuous 'rationale' - that you were apparently challenged about your service dial, so it's only fair that you can challenge another dial!? That's the reasoning you applied in questioning it? Why do you think it deserves scrutiny, based on your experience? Actually, don't answer that

[Toronto Soup King]

I think we're beyond watches now - GOOD NIGHT THREAD

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

You really love the click of your own keyboard, don't you? You'd think this was your thread. You've certainly attempted to take possession of it

In response to your rude and unwarranted comment, my attention-span is just fine, although I'm way past my tolerance threshold with your seemingly endless torrent of... nonsense. I've enjoyed posts by other contributors, however.

Thirdly, what has your standard service dial got to do with the genuine and beautiful patinated vintage dial about whose authenticity you are skeptical? Nothing whatsoever. You've attempted to justify and wriggle out from underneath the dubious question-mark you raised over the dial by some tenuous 'rationale' - that you were apparently challenged about your service dial, so it's only fair that you can challenge another dial!? That's the reasoning you applied in questioning it? Why do you think it deserves scrutiny, based on your experience? Actually, don't answer that

First, not sure why you are this upset, especially over your perceived 'dial criticism' when you yourself destroyed that beautiful Certina when this thread first started.

Next, the thread asks the question of why people find patina so interesting and the question of patina authenticity is on-topic.

Next, I stepped away from this hobby for 10 years due to children and work responsibilities, this patina infatuation is new to me and I am learning about it on-the-fly. What intrigues me now is this comment on the Hodinkee article which no one has addressed and I think deserves a response:

"That was an interesting article. But it failed to address the major issue in the current market: fake patina... And I am sure you guys are very aware of oven and UV artificial dial ageing techniques...

Today, it looks like 50 % of straight lugs Speedmasters, 4 digits Submariners
and Daytonas are 'tropical', commanding a 100% premium vs a nicely, softly aged example, while 10 years ago these tropicals where nowhere to be seen. I can't believe that this patina developed suddenly after 2010 ;-). And I am sure you are also informed of the pros who bake these dials....
Not to mention the fake-patinated / bleached bezels to match the fake patinated / overcooked dials...

I hope that in 5 years time the market will swing back after most of the average dials will have been manipulated into some form of tropic / spider / shadow (or whatever those artificial patinas are called these days), and that the truly, original, untouched, preserved dials will take over this masquerade!

Is this commenter on the Hodinkee site correct or not? Are there "pros who bake dials"? Are there "oven and UV" techniques for this? Do these same dealers "bleach bezels"? I see people spending hours talking about the openness of a tiny 6 printed on a dial, tell me how one judges the authenticity of "patina" please, are there tell-tale signs of these alleged oven baking and UV exposing techniques to spot a fake?

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by speedolex

First, not sure why you are this upset, especially over your perceived 'dial criticism' when you yourself destroyed that beautiful Certina when this thread first started.

Next, the thread asks the question of why people find patina so interesting and the question of patina authenticity is on-topic.

Next, I stepped away from this hobby for 10 years due to children and work responsibilities, this patina infatuation is new to me and I am learning about it on-the-fly. What intrigues me now is this comment on the Hodinkee article which no one has addressed and I think deserves a response:

"That was an interesting article. But it failed to address the major issue in the current market: fake patina... And I am sure you guys are very aware of oven and UV artificial dial ageing techniques...

Today, it looks like 50 % of straight lugs Speedmasters, 4 digits Submariners
and Daytonas are 'tropical', commanding a 100% premium vs a nicely, softly aged example, while 10 years ago these tropicals where nowhere to be seen. I can't believe that this patina developed suddenly after 2010 ;-). And I am sure you are also informed of the pros who bake these dials....
Not to mention the fake-patinated / bleached bezels to match the fake patinated / overcooked dials...

I hope that in 5 years time the market will swing back after most of the average dials will have been manipulated into some form of tropic / spider / shadow (or whatever those artificial patinas are called these days), and that the truly, original, untouched, preserved dials will take over this masquerade!

Is this commenter on the Hodinkee site correct or not? Are there "pros who bake dials"? Are there "oven and UV" techniques for this? Do these same dealers "bleach bezels"? I see people spending hours talking about the openness of a tiny 6 printed on a dial, tell me how one judges the authenticity of "patina" please, are there tell-tale signs of these alleged oven baking and UV exposing techniques to spot a fake?

I'm not in the least bit upset mate; just straightening things out a little. You keep digging, it's actually very amusing! And you still haven't answered - what's suspect about that beautiful DRSD dial? Maybe you should 'step away from this hobby' for another ten years and do some research, instead of trolling around here and spouting rubbish. BTW, Hodinkee isn't the "Horological Oracle" (©Vincent65)

[speedolex]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

I'm not in the least bit upset mate; just straightening things out a little. You keep digging, it's actually very amusing! And you still haven't answered - what's suspect about that beautiful DRSD dial? Maybe you should 'step away from this hobby' for another ten years and do some research, instead of trolling around here and spouting rubbish. BTW, Hodinkee isn't the "Horological Oracle" (©Vincent65)

I am trying to get an education on the latest vintage watch trend and that's what this thread was intended to be about. Do some research? That's what I'm doing and this seems to be the forum and the thread for it. I'm in the market for a 5513 and that Hodinkee poster brought something to light that I did not know about, and based on what he said I'm concerned.

What I find suspect about that DRSD dial is just how perfect it is, looks brand new, except for the lume which has a completely even tone across all the different plots. I don't think I've ever seen another quite like it. Most dials I've seen that have significant dark beige lume also have significant fading or cracking of the black dial itself.

Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine in the post above:

Is this commenter on the Hodinkee site correct or not? Are there "pros who bake dials"? Are there "oven and UV" techniques for this? Do these same dealers "bleach bezels"? I see people spending hours talking about the openness of a tiny 6 printed on a dial, can you tell me how one judges the authenticity of "patina"?

[rootbeer7]

Guys please. Let's remain friends as we've all got something in common (Rolex). It's really poor manners to hijack a great thread like this. Vincent65, you've always posted great stuff, responded to my posts in a kind and warm manner; don't rise to it. Patina or no patina, Rolex make great watches. I love my vintage, my wife and best mate thinks they're old junk; vive la difference

[watchgroupcorp]

#drama

[Superprecise]

I would add two points, apologies if they've already been made.

Firstly, I disagree that the fashion for visibly aged watches has been cynically dreamt up by the marketing departments of watch companies. I've no doubt that they have identified and milked it, but I think it's part of a cycle. It's currently in vogue and the same thing can be seen in menswear and completely separate industries too. There is an appetite for authenticity for various reasons, partly as a backlash to our throwaway consumerism and partly also to more abstract economic factors. As it stands, the fashion for 'heritage' brands is peaking if it hasn't already. There will always be people into vintage stuff but it comes and goes as a mainstream fascination.

Secondly and for me personally, I prefer to buy new, the reason being that I want the scratches and discolouration to come from my own experience. Yes, a lovely old Sub can reveal how it's been used and cared for and that's fascinating, but I think it's nice to actually know where it's been. I've just bought a Datejust new and I love it being all immaculate and shiny, but it's already getting scratched and that's fine. In fifty years I hope it will show all that wear and tear and I'll love it then too. It's my watch and it'll be nice to know it at each stage of that story. Similarly, I like buying raw selvedge denim jeans and wearing them for years until they virtually disintegrate. I'm not interested in wearing jeans that have already been beaten up by some complete stranger, even if they are amazing objectively. I thought some of the earlier posts in this thread were a bit condescending in suggesting that the OP is ignorant and unable to understand it (and so probably doesn't visit museums LOL).

[Superprecise]

I also think artificially replicating patina on brand new stuff is ridiculous.

[droptopman]

Originally Posted by speedolex

I am trying to get an education on the latest vintage watch trend and that's what this thread was intended to be about. Do some research? That's what I'm doing and this seems to be the forum and the thread for it. I'm in the market for a 5513 and that Hodinkee poster brought something to light that I did not know about, and based on what he said I'm concerned.

What I find suspect about that DRSD dial is just how perfect it is, looks brand new, except for the lume which has a completely even tone across all the different plots. I don't think I've ever seen another quite like it. Most dials I've seen that have significant dark beige lume also have significant fading or cracking of the black dial itself.

Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine in the post above:

Is this commenter on the Hodinkee site correct or not? Are there "pros who bake dials"? Are there "oven and UV" techniques for this? Do these same dealers "bleach bezels"? I see people spending hours talking about the openness of a tiny 6 printed on a dial, can you tell me how one judges the authenticity of "patina"?

Yes people can and do mimic age and patina. Seen plenty of "franken" watches over the years with artificial aging. Two things you can check. The back of the dial is one place to examine for heat. Backside of an insert for the bleach treatment.

Other than that, I cannot objectively say how I know the difference but it is more of a sense/feel when examining a watch for me. I am sure others with more experience may be able to provide more objective criteria.

However, I do not believe that reputable dealers/collectors/traders are doing this. It would only take one time for a dealer to lose his/her credibility. As we always say, "Buy the Seller"

I have zero doubt in my mind that my gilt 5513 has natural patina. 100% believe it is original and aged naturally. And I really love the look of the gloss gilt dial with that nice tan patina. A thing of beauty to me. Case shows signs of 50 years of wear also.