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Old 7 October 2019, 01:45 AM   #1
Fredcohiba
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What is the lift angle for the Rolex 3235 movement?

Just curious to know. I have only seen it listed as 55 degrees in another forum, but nothing else doing Google search. Thanks.
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Old 7 October 2019, 03:08 PM   #2
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55 degrees is correct
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Old 5 February 2021, 05:18 AM   #3
angelgar
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rolex lift angle

Rolex 3235,3255,3285[/B]
Beats hour 28,800
lift angle 55°
maximun beats tolerance (0.5)
maximun amplitude at 0 hr (HH)° 310
minimun amplitude at 24hr (VV)° 200
Rate: 1st criterion (s/d) 9
Rate: 2nd criterion (s/) -1/+3
Maximun power reserve (hours) 68
Number of rachet wheel rotations
to unwind fron 0 hr to 24 hr 3.5
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Old 5 February 2021, 08:29 AM   #4
amanbra
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Well the other day Bas said they changed it to 53. How the hell did Rolex get it wrong for 6 years and just updated?

They just fixed the 32xx I think...
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Old 6 February 2021, 11:08 PM   #5
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It does seem odd that they designed it themselves and yet miscalculated the angle. On the one hand, you'd think they would have known the angle before it was even built, determined directly in their CAD model. On the other hand, given the significant changes they made to the escapement to produce the Chronergy, it's certainly possible that things ended up diverging from the theoretical value when they started measuring movements in the real world.

Regardless, I have not seen any evidence that this change signals a fix for the problems others have reported. The description and pictures showing past problems did not involve the escapement at all, and any changes to the gear train should not impact the lift angle.

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Old 14 February 2021, 06:01 AM   #6
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Lift angle for the 32×× is no longer 55 degrees, it is now 53 degrees. Which will also result in a lower amplitude reading when compared to 55 degrees.

Are we officially going with 53? Bas, has the Rolex technical documentation officially changed from 55 to 53?
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Old 16 February 2021, 04:46 PM   #7
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I’d love for some formal confirmation and one other watchmaker to confirm.


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Old 6 March 2021, 12:00 AM   #8
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In absence of any official confirmation and a non-believe of 53 of 55 degrees, one can use the following information:

Lift angle 53 -> amplitude = X degrees
Lift angle 54 -> amplitude = X+6 degrees
Lift angle 55 -> amplitude = X+12 degrees

If one measures with 55 but the movement has a lift angle of 53 degrees, then the timegrapher result for the amplitude is 12 degrees too high.
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Old 6 March 2021, 10:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smobews View Post
Are we officially going with 53? Bas, has the Rolex technical documentation officially changed from 55 to 53?
Quote:
Originally Posted by amanbra View Post
I’d love for some formal confirmation and one other watchmaker to confirm.


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Can confirm technical documentation has been revised to show lift angle of 53°
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Old 6 March 2021, 05:32 PM   #10
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Can confirm technical documentation has been revised to show lift angle of 53°

Thanks
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Old 6 March 2021, 05:43 PM   #11
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What is the lift angle for the Rolex 3235 movement?

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Originally Posted by watchmaker View Post
Can confirm technical documentation has been revised to show lift angle of 53°

Thank you.

This for all 32xx or the new ones?

How is it possible they miscalculated it in the first place if it applies to the older movements?


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Old 19 March 2021, 11:46 AM   #12
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The angles in this new escapement are completely new.
The angle of the pallet fork arm and the pallet stones are a new design.

Plus there are now, two angles on the escape wheel teeth. [again, completely new]
These two angles must play into the calculations.

Angle of lift should be measured the exact same way.
I would say defining lift angle on a new escapement with completely angles isn't as easy as it sounds
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Old 19 March 2021, 01:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Can confirm technical documentation has been revised to show lift angle of 53°
Can you share anything else of interest from that documentation? Perhaps any specs on amplitude minimums at various levels of PR? Is this coming from a full technical service manual? I see these for sale on eBay for the 31xx but never the 32xx. How does one go about getting these documents "officially"?

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Old 20 March 2021, 02:26 AM   #14
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Officially you need to be a certified technician working in a certified AD
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Old 20 March 2021, 05:16 AM   #15
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What is the lift angle for the Rolex 3235 movement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liga View Post
I would say defining lift angle on a new escapement with completely angles isn't as easy as it sounds
Sorry, with all my respect for your watch expert judgement, this appears to me like a technical joke!

You may not imagine what can be theoretically calculated, simulated, and measured in the 21st century, in addition ultra-fast.
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Old 22 March 2021, 02:51 AM   #16
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Explain why the lift angel was originally 55 and now it's 53.
What changed?
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Old 22 March 2021, 03:51 AM   #17
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Follow up question: What happened to Bas (SearChart)? I haven't seen anything from him in weeks and miss his expertise.
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Old 22 March 2021, 04:18 AM   #18
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Explain why the lift angel was originally 55 and now it's 53.
What changed?
None of us are going to be able to answer that question with certainty. But my suspicion is that real-world conditions may have proved slightly different than the CAD environment which created this design to begin with. In actual functioning there is a slight amount of rebound and reversing of direction on the escapement parts . The amount will be related to mass and velocity and may just be something that the engineers did not calculate/simulate exactly correctly in the beginning. Now with the actual movements in the real world you could use optical methods to measure and see exactly what it is doing in reality versus on paper. Again, just a guess. But one of the only ones I can think of that would explain a spec change without a part change.

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Old 22 March 2021, 05:51 AM   #19
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What is the lift angle for the Rolex 3235 movement?

Only speculations and guesses, also impossible to trace back the caliber evolution, different versions 1,2,3...?

The difference in measured amplitudes is 12 degrees, see post #8.

It would be interesting to find and analyze two watches, with either 3235 or 3285 movements, built in different years, then measure different (55,53) lift angles, followed by a comparison of the individual movement components.

To measure lift angles one needs to open the caseback and use an optical device (WisioScope).

But who wants and is able to do this here where many not even believe in 32xx issues and also doubt again and again the usefulness and validity of timegrapher in general. Hopeless.
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Old 22 March 2021, 07:30 AM   #20
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If you let me know the details of what to look for, saxo3, I can do that when I meet my watchmaker next month, on two 32xx movements, I can leave them with him for as long as necessary - DeepSea & Datejust both 2021.
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Old 22 March 2021, 05:46 PM   #21
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If you let me know the details of what to look for, saxo3, I can do that when I meet my watchmaker next month, on two 32xx movements, I can leave them with him for as long as necessary - DeepSea & Datejust both 2021.

Great proposal, thanks
The watchmaker should MEASURE the lift angle of both watches, and not quote any document they may have received.
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Old 22 March 2021, 11:09 PM   #22
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What is the lift angle for the Rolex 3235 movement?

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Great proposal, thanks
The watchmaker should MEASURE the lift angle of both watches, and not quote any document they may have received.


With respect to your post #19, such a measurement would have the same potential inaccuracy as others have mentioned. In other words, an anecdotal observation by a single watchmaker versus an officially certified answer. (Which I believed you have been advocating for)

I tend to agree with your conclusion in #19: hopeless.


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Old 23 March 2021, 01:40 AM   #23
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With respect to your post #19, such a measurement would have the same potential inaccuracy as others have mentioned
I don't think so.

I have not seen one 3235 or 3285 lift angle measurement of any single watchmaker on this forum. I had discussed with Bas end of last year, since 07 January he did not come back to the forum.

What would be interesting are lift angle measurements of two 32xx calibers, one resulting in 55 and the other in 53 degrees That would indicate that Rolex had changed the design at some point.

The discussion is probably too academic and it also does not solve the issues with 32xx calibers that several have reported here.

Arguing with statistical relevance and occurrence is anyhow a discussion killer, I also agree.

In my view more measurement data of 32xx rates, amplitudes, and beat errors are needed. Even if many are not convinced of its usefulness, I will continue for my watches.

You are very welcome to further contribute in my data collection under:
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=786299
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Old 23 March 2021, 01:57 AM   #24
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What is the lift angle for the Rolex 3235 movement?

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The discussion is probably too academic and it also does not solve the issues with 32xx calibers that several have reported here.

Arguing with statistical relevance and occurrence is anyhow a discussion killer, I also agree.

That is just what I meant. The desire for certainty becomes somewhat academic and statistical. Loss of timekeeping accuracy is the measure for owners. The root cause for each may vary.

I don’t have data for your other thread that is collecting observations on 3235 symptoms. But it’s a worthy collection of instances.





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Old 23 March 2021, 02:08 AM   #25
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What is the lift angle for the Rolex 3235 movement?

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That is just what I meant. The desire for certainty becomes somewhat academic and statistical. Loss of timekeeping accuracy is the measure for owners. The root cause for each may vary.

I don’t have data for your other thread that is collecting observations on 3235 symptoms. But it’s a worthy collection of instances.
I fully agree with you, it should not become a too academic exercise*

Since I'm not a native speaker, we are not collecting observations on 3235 symptoms but data. This is a huge difference for me.

In other forums (or fora?) they collect symptoms, which basically means text, text, text..... but no concrete data or numbers.

*Honestly, I would like it a bit more systematic or a little 'scientific' but then nobody would be willing to follow. I tend to forget that's 'only' a forum.
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Old 23 March 2021, 02:43 AM   #26
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What would be interesting are lift angle measurements of two 32xx calibers, one resulting in 55 and the other in 53 degrees That would indicate that Rolex had changed the design at some point.
Again, this is just my opinion but I do not believe there has been an escapement design change. The reason I say this is because we have now had 2 watchmakers indicate that they have seen 53 degrees listed in the updated documentation. But let's think about it, if it was a matter of version 1 versus version 2, they wouldn't have changed the documentation from 55 to 53, instead they would have amended it to say something like:

Production dates Jan 2015 - Aug 2019: 55 degrees
Production dates Sept 2019 and later: 53 degrees

NOTE THE ABOVE IS JUST A MADE UP EXAMPLE!!

Furthermore, if there are actually two versions in the field now, then having the docs say only "53" is just as wrong as it was before when it said only "55". This is why I believe there is only 1 design, and this was a calculation update not a part charge.
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Old 23 March 2021, 03:16 AM   #27
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My friend, we'll never find out here, and one can "believe in something" in a church.

I just can't subscribe in a calculation update, not Rolex, not in Switzerland, but I also cannot rule that completely out.

So the lift angle discussion approaches a dead end.

Let's try together to acquire more caliber data in your/our thread.
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Old 23 March 2021, 03:51 AM   #28
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My friend, we'll never find out here, and one can "believe in something" in a church.

I just can't subscribe in a calculation update, not Rolex, not in Switzerland, but I also cannot rule that completely out.

So the lift angle discussion approaches a dead end.

Let's try together to acquire more caliber data in your/our thread.

Have you considered that the lift angle answer can be settled another way? That is via an exercise conducted by a watchmaker (perhaps one here). One that uses 2 known values to find the lift angle. Simple but requires a donor.

I’m proposing this:
1. One can open a model with the 3235 movement that is out of warranty. (Why, you may ask?...because you want a movement that has stabilized in its routine operation plus not wanting to void a warranty)
2. Allow movement to run down.
3. Mark one balance arm with ink dot
4. Turn stem to gradually add mainspring power gently until balance is rotating at 180°
5. Observe to insure 180° is steady
6. Put movement on timing machine (like Witschi with adjustments).
7. Adjust lift angle setting until Witschi reads 180° (give or take 1°)
8. You now know if lift angle is 55° or 53° or some other answer.

I have read the other thread and the amplitude data is still anecdotal because some movements are being measured using 55° setting and others 53°. Also, each observer can randomly have affected their movement by lack of use or inadvertent abuse. Ergo, the “observer effect”.

None of my input is meant to criticize anyone contributing, nor those analyzing. It’s just not systematic as you mentioned.


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Old 23 March 2021, 05:33 AM   #29
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My friend, we'll never find out here, and one can "believe in something" in a church.

I just can't subscribe in a calculation update, not Rolex, not in Switzerland, but I also cannot rule that completely out.

So the lift angle discussion approaches a dead end.
No church for me, thanks. But in the absence of data, we are left with logic. And even scientists subscribe to the idea that often the simplest answer is the correct one (Occam's razor, as you surely know).

I will also add that if Rolex were as infallible as you are suggesting, then we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Clearly, Rolex can make mistakes. I'm much less concerned about their mistake in the service manual than I am about their mistake in the movement :)

Quote:
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Have you considered that the lift angle answer can be settled another way? That is via an exercise conducted by a watchmaker (perhaps one here). One that uses 2 known values to find the lift angle. Simple but requires a donor.

I’m proposing this:
1. One can open a model with the 3235 movement that is out of warranty. (Why, you may ask?...because you want a movement that has stabilized in its routine operation plus not wanting to void a warranty)
2. Allow movement to run down.
3. Mark one balance arm with ink dot
4. Turn stem to gradually add mainspring power gently until balance is rotating at 180°
5. Observe to insure 180° is steady
6. Put movement on timing machine (like Witschi with adjustments).
7. Adjust lift angle setting until Witschi reads 180° (give or take 1°)
8. You now know if lift angle is 55° or 53° or some other answer.
My understanding is that timegraphers come up with an amplitude based on a table and that table is likely developed by looking at real world examples (perhaps using an experiment such as the one you have described). But the bottom line is you have a machine taking the time between two sounds and attempting to extrapolate that out to a very complicated calculation that would need to know the precise rates of acceleration and deceleration that your particular hairspring provides to even remotely come close to an exact amplitude number. I feel like there would be so much "noise" in the data between two different brands of timegrapher, two different styles of hairspring, or even just two different watches of the same model, that it would be hard to know what needs to be further calibrated out and what is valid. As well, since we are using a single time measurement to approximate a non-linear amplitude, I would argue even if you nailed the calibration at 180 degrees it could go off course at 220 or 260.

It's all very interesting to think about (sincerely) but to be honest I'm not in the camp that believes the actual angle really matters to the degree we are splitting hairs. If feel like it's analogous to using a voltmeter to check an outlet at your house. One brand of meter may read 115V, another may read 118V. One house may be 116V on meter "A" and the house next door is 114V with the same meter. But all of these results are "good". 0V, or 240V, or 30V would all be "bad". And so it goes with amplitude. If there's a problem, it should be obvious. Nothing magical happens between 200 degrees and 199 degrees. But 200 degrees is one ballpark and 260 is another. I highly doubt we're going to be in a situation where we're looking at a watch losing lots of time and yet the difference between 53 and 55 degrees would change whether or not the amplitude values seem suspect. We should of course all use 53 going forward, but for those who don't, or who didn't in the past, I'm really not worried about.
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Old 23 March 2021, 05:42 AM   #30
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What is the lift angle for the Rolex 3235 movement?

I see what you mean and agree the practical variance within a few degrees of amplitude wouldn’t matter unless other symptoms showed up. Things like excessive wear in a certain bushing or cracked jewel, etc.

Borrowing a page from American Baseball, or ICC Cricket, it’s like a “hot stove league” debate about the quality of American ash bats and Willow and runs scored. Nice casual conversation but hardly causal facts.


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