The term “Grey”.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by sgwatchguy

That’s classic “black market”.

And greys exist between the AD and the black market.

The term has been around and in use for a long time, and it’s not used exclusively for Rolex or watches. In many cases and countries it represents the sellers of goods who import or distribute legally but have no official ties with the manufacturer or brand.

I see no negative connotations in it. It’s an indication of your sellers relationship with the brand or manufacturer, or the lack of it.

It should also be noted that the American definition isn’t the only one!

[inadeje]

I don’t particularly appreciate the term, especially concerning the derogatory connotations it evokes. However, its a colloquial term that is widely used by the masses, thus a tough call to get it erased from everyone’s vocabulary.

The grey is dead, long live the grey

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by sgwatchguy

That’s classic “black market”.

And greys exist between the AD and the black market.

The term has been around and in use for a long time, and it’s not used exclusively for Rolex or watches. In many cases and countries it represents the sellers of goods who import or distribute legally but have no official ties with the manufacturer or brand.

I see no negative connotations in it. It’s an indication of your sellers relationship with the brand or manufacturer, or the lack of it.

Isn't the "black market" the buying and selling of stolen goods?

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Isn't the "black market" the buying and selling of stolen goods?

“an illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities”.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

“an illegal traffic or trade in officially controlled or scarce commodities”.

So watch re-selling, being perfectly legal, would not be "black market" by that definition, right?

It seems as though "classic black market" is illegal, but watch re-selling is not (at least not in the US, so long as you pay taxes on profits).

In my mind, black market is illegal, grey market is diversion (where somebody along the supply chain is doing something technically illegal but rarely prosecuted), and watch re-selling is legal opportunism...the "secondary market."

That's my opinion, anyway; not only am I not a lawyer, but I am a re-seller, so I may be biased.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

So watch re-selling, being perfectly legal, would not be "black market" by that definition, right?

It seems as though "classic black market" is illegal, but watch re-selling is not (at least not in the US, so long as you pay taxes on profits).

In my mind, black market is illegal, grey market is diversion (where somebody along the supply chain is doing something technically illegal but rarely prosecuted), and watch re-selling is legal opportunism...the "secondary market."

That's my opinion, anyway; not only am I not a lawyer, but I am a re-seller, so I may be biased.

What does selling secondhand or pre-owned watches (in other words any watch that isn’t being sold as brand new) have to do with anything. You mentioned selling watches in a manner that avoids taxes which I assumed would be black market since that is an illegal activity. It could also include stolen items.

In a nutshell the Grey market according to my understanding of the term is a new product being sold outside the official supply chain (with or without the official paperwork and warranty).

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

What does selling secondhand or pre-owned watches (in other words any watch that isn’t being sold as brand new) have to do with anything. You mentioned selling watches in a manner that avoids taxes which I assumed would be black market since that is an illegal activity. It could also include stolen items.

In a nutshell the Grey market according to my understanding of the term is a new product being sold outside the official supply chain (with or without the official paperwork and warranty).

Who said anything about secondhand or pre-owned? "Re-selling"in the context of this thread applies to the act of buying a watch from an AD and re-selling it in BNIB/NIB/LNIB condition on the secondary market...thought that was a given here.

As for your second paragraph, it seems we agree. I guess I was confused by your statement, "that is classic black market," which you seemed to be applying to what you have above defined as the "grey market." I'll re-read.

[RJRJRJ]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

What does selling secondhand or pre-owned watches (in other words any watch that isn’t being sold as brand new) have to do with anything. You mentioned selling watches in a manner that avoids taxes which I assumed would be black market since that is an illegal activity. It could also include stolen items.

In a nutshell the Grey market according to my understanding of the term is a new product being sold outside the official supply chain (with or without the official paperwork and warranty).

Gray market would be an item sold through a channel, usually a distributor selling outside of it's own market. Probably won't have a warranty, maybe has manuals in a different language and maybe different accessories. As to whether they broke any laws, well I guess that would determine if it fell into black market territory.

All Rolex watches are distributed to ADs through Rolex, and are sold through an AD. So when you buy a watch from anywhere besides an AD, you're just buying a used/resold watch. Rolex USA is not dumping pallets of watches out the back door.

[teck21]

Not bothered either. They simply perform an essential market function, doesn’t matter what they’re called.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TimeAZ]

We should refer to Grey dealers as "actual distributors"... aka the "real" AD.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Who said anything about secondhand or pre-owned? "Re-selling"in the context of this thread applies to the act of buying a watch from an AD and re-selling it in BNIB/NIB/LNIB condition on the secondary market...thought that was a given here.

As for your second paragraph, it seems we agree. I guess I was confused by your statement, "that is classic black market," which you seemed to be applying to what you have above defined as the "grey market." I'll re-read.

As an Englishman the term reseller has no meaning either. This is a problem of semantics.

[Seddyspaghetti]

Seems like an unpopular opinion as noone mentioned it here yet but i think backdooring bundle deals with ADs for the hot pieces and marking them up crazily is a negative to me. I’d rather build my relationship with an AD and wait a relatively normal time to get a pepsi or another hot piece instead of the rediculus wait times these days. But i get your point OP.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by RJRJRJ

All Rolex watches are distributed to ADs through Rolex, and are sold through an AD. So when you buy a watch from anywhere besides an AD, you're just buying a used/resold watch. Rolex USA is not dumping pallets of watches out the back door.

And there’s the rub. Yes all new Rolex are sold new only through an AD but if they bypass a customer and go straight to a grey dealer then they are not pre owned in the sense of what secondhand is.

[EatMcdonalds]

Originally Posted by DarthSimon

I keep reading posts that call our watch dealers grey. I know what it means for sure. Been around here for a few years... Honestly it rubs me the wrong way. It just sounds dirty or shines negativity on dealers. I don’t see our trusted sellers as grey market dealers. They are just well respected watch dealers. Plain and simple....

Anyone else bothered by the word grey? Heck if we didn’t have these guys, 75% of us would have zero access to Rolex watches....

No because they are selling watches at the moment at crazy mark ups. Grey is very much appropriate.

[Psmith]

Primary Purchasers?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

As an Englishman the term reseller has no meaning either. This is a problem of semantics.

I would expect that a TRF regular would be quite familiar with the term "reseller" in this context but we'll chalk it up to semantics.

[Nairn1980]

Originally Posted by DarthSimon

I keep reading posts that call our watch dealers grey. I know what it means for sure. Been around here for a few years... Honestly it rubs me the wrong way. It just sounds dirty or shines negativity on dealers. I don’t see our trusted sellers as grey market dealers. They are just well respected watch dealers. Plain and simple....

Anyone else bothered by the word grey? Heck if we didn’t have these guys, 75% of us would have zero access to Rolex watches....

I wouldn’t let it bother you

[TswaneNguni]

Secondary market watch dealers .

[Son Goku]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

I vote for "Pawn Stars"

Name checks out

[interestedwatcher]

Originally Posted by DarthSimon

I keep reading posts that call our watch dealers grey. I know what it means for sure. Been around here for a few years... Honestly it rubs me the wrong way. It just sounds dirty or shines negativity on dealers. I don’t see our trusted sellers as grey market dealers. They are just well respected watch dealers. Plain and simple....

Anyone else bothered by the word grey? Heck if we didn’t have these guys, 75% of us would have zero access to Rolex watches....

Grey is used for parallel imports and other businesses, that offer products but without all the support of say, the local distributor.

So if you bought a Samsung washing machine from Japan to save 100 dollars over getting it locally, it's a grey import. You bought it outside of the usual supply chain.

It has no negative connotations, other than the ones you put on in your mind.

[Speedbird-1]

Wikipedia defines it quite succinctly.

A grey or gray market (sometimes confused with the similar term "parallel market") refers to the trade of a commodity through distribution channels that are not authorized by the original manufacturer or trade mark proprietor. Grey market products (grey goods) are products traded outside the authorized manufacturer's channel.

Seems accurate enough, in this instance.

[padi56]

Many watch manufacturers say they don't tolerate the grey market well in the real world that's a myth IMHO.) Truth today many could not survive without it, ask yourself why, simply because all manufacturers need to move all their products they make. Many of these companies make hundreds of thousands of units a year and it's well understood that they can only all be sold if a grey market thrives and that's a fact.And mostly all grey market watches are exactly the same as what you would buy from a authorised retailer,main difference you will not get the manufacture warranty.But today many grey dealers offer their own warranty, and when any grey warranty has expired.Brands like Rolex will then service repair the watch as they dont need to know or care where it was bought and will be quite happy to take your money.Take the modern day SS Daytona when it was launched way back in 2000 it was very hard to at retail. But easy to get from a grey if willing to pay a premium as most were bought and flipped for profit. And today with the cosmetically changed ceramic Daytona long waiting lists at ADs god know why, its not even a completely new watch. Perhaps just like the Daytona back in 2000 most are bought then flipped to the grey market for profit, thus depriving those who what to own a Daytona ceramic from getting one at retail price.Afraid today the WIS type can be his/her worst enemy as many see Rolex watches as nothing more than ££££$$$$.

[DarthSimon]

So my father was in the hair salon business for my entire life. He recently retired 4 years back. He would always tell me stories about his shampoo suppliers having supply issues where the manufacturer or US Distribution would go after grey market sellers. They would call them diverters. Mostly it was hair salons buying much larger orders then what they would actually need, and then in turn they would flip that product to other markets....

Great example was Nexxus shampoo. Years ago Nexxus shampoo was only sold in high end hair salons. The grey market evolved, diverters started moving the product to places like Harmon’s and now even Costco. The brand lost its image with being Exclusive and now sold in almost every drug store and pharmacy in the United States.

So my point being grey does sound kinda negative. Just my opinion for sure. It was presented to me in this way as I described above. My farther was very close with the manufacturers and he would tell me stories about how the manufacturers would set up sting operations to find these grey / diverters.

So my question is do you guys find these “ Trusted Sellers” to be diverters or pre owned dealers. Are they going back channel and purchasing inventory from Rolex Authorized Dealers, or just pre owned. Heck they often have Brand new sets with tags.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Pam673

Nope..why should 'I' be bothered by it? Because 'YOU' think it's derogative?

Well respected watch dealers? They are the ones that paid inflated price to AD to stop you from buying at retail so you have to buy it from them at an even more inflated price...lol whatever

Originally Posted by padi56

Many watch manufacturers say they don't tolerate the grey market well in the real world that's a myth IMHO.) Truth today many could not survive without it, ask yourself why, simply because all manufacturers need to move all their products they make. Many of these companies make hundreds of thousands of units a year and it's well understood that they can only all be sold if a grey market thrives and that's a fact.And mostly all grey market watches are exactly the same as what you would buy from a authorised retailer,main difference you will not get the manufacture warranty.But today many grey dealers offer their own warranty, and when any grey warranty has expired.Brands like Rolex will then service repair the watch as they dont need to know or care where it was bought and will be quite happy to take your money.Take the modern day SS Daytona when it was launched way back in 2000 it was very hard to at retail. But easy to get from a grey if willing to pay a premium as most were bought and flipped for profit. And today with the cosmetically changed ceramic Daytona long waiting lists at ADs god know why, its not even a completely new watch. Perhaps just like the Daytona back in 2000 most are bought then flipped to the grey market for profit, thus depriving those who what to own a Daytona ceramic from getting one at retail price.Afraid today the WIS type can be his/her worst enemy as many see Rolex watches as nothing more than ££££$$$$.

Peter,

Should ‘watch manufacturers‘ be replaced with ‘AD’s‘.

After all, in this discussion Rolex are not supplying the grey market at least not here in Oz.

[gwozhog]

10 years ago grey dealer meant you bought a watch from a guy at a nice discount. Now They should be red dealers because with the ridiculous mark up they are charging you are in the red as soon as you buy from them.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by DarthSimon

Honestly it rubs me the wrong way. It just sounds dirty or shines negativity on dealers.

If this is something that rubs you the wrong way, I hope you don't go outside or read the news. Don't lose sleep.

[daveathall]

It promotes the correct spelling of "Grey."

[DarthSimon]

Oh I dint loose sleep over it. To the contrary, I respect individuals who have succeeded in business. I personally do not refer to our trusted dealers as grey market. I call them Watch Dealers.

Personally I have tried on numerous occasions to support my local Rolex AD.
I have bought 4 watches from them over the last 25 years. The last 2-3 years you just can’t talk to them. They have no stock and tell you to get on a waiting list.

[Chester01]

No. Gray is fine. They are not AD and Rolex does not actually “officially” promote non-AD purchases, but they are trusted. I don’t see any negative connotation about the term, but let’s not delude ourselves, they are not AD’s. The gray market does also create more availability for those with means and less for the walk in at the AD. Let’s be objective here.

[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by daveathall

It promotes the correct spelling of "Grey."

With you on that Dave!