Patek Innovation

[Calatrava r]

I wonder why PP does not strive to create new movements. Two ideas which occur to me is replace the 5196 line and come out with a full size movement to case which incorporates a power reserve and 72 hour autonomy. They could also offer this model for purists who prefer not to have the power reserve. Second, for whatever reason the 5170 line has been a disaster. Why not build a dress watch which has the third 12 hour dial and maybe a power reserve or automatic movement. These are main line offerings which could boost interest if improved upon.

[daveyw]

Submit your ideas direct to Patek, you could start a new career

[thomaspp]

The reason: $$$$$$$$

It's easier to recycle old movements and to service them. Need less R&D, less training of watchmakers, etc.


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[Tony64]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

The reason: $$$$$$$$

It's easier to recycle old movements and to service them. Need less R&D, less training of watchmakers, etc.


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i agree with you that this is likely their reasoning. Cost savings. I think it's false economy though, and Patek's chickens are coming home to roost.

The investment in a replacement for the 21mm cal 215 is long overdue and recycling has its limits.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by Tony64

i agree with you that this is likely their reasoning. Cost savings. I think it's false economy though, and Patek's chickens are coming home to roost.



The investment in a replacement for the 21mm cal 215 is long overdue and recycling has its limits.

Agreed


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[jon_jon]

IMO Patek does continue to innovate and produce new or revised movements. They have been adding silicium parts to their movements over the past decade. So the movement in a watch today is made of different parts compared to the same reference from 10 years ago. Also a watch like the Grandmaster Chime has taken thousands of watchmaker hours to design and manufacture. No one would claim that Patek's innovation is lacking in a watch like that.

Their new references 5524, 5930, 5320 within the past 3 years are all new movements or at least revised movements. That is why they are not able to mass produce these references, because it takes time to produce these new movements.

I disagree that 5170 has been a disaster. It is a fabulous chronograph with an excellent movement. Mechanically many claim it has a better movement than its predecessor, the 5070. IMO it has better proportions than the 5070. If you are referring to the fact that Patek over-estimated the demand for the 5170 and "over-produced" it, I would agree. But that relates more to Patek ramping up production significantly on all of its watches since 2010 and the global watch market softening over the past 2+ years. It has nothing to do with the mechanical soundness of the 5170.

[KarlS]

I think the 5170G is drop dead gorgeous and if I had the money or liked chrono's would definately be in my collection. PP also seldom keeps everyone happy...innovate too radically and everyone bitches about PP DNA, evolve proven designs and moving too slowly!! When I last checked PP wasn't a charity but a very profitable business as can be seen by their October incoming.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

IMO Patek does continue to innovate and produce new or revised movements. They have been adding silicium parts to their movements over the past decade. So the movement in a watch today is made of different parts compared to the same reference from 10 years ago. Also a watch like the Grandmaster Chime has taken thousands of watchmaker hours to design and manufacture. No one would claim that Patek's innovation is lacking in a watch like that.

Their new references 5524, 5930, 5320 within the past 3 years are all new movements or at least revised movements. That is why they are not able to mass produce these references, because it takes time to produce these new movements.

I disagree that 5170 has been a disaster. It is a fabulous chronograph with an excellent movement. Mechanically many claim it has a better movement than its predecessor, the 5070. IMO it has better proportions than the 5070. If you are referring to the fact that Patek over-estimated the demand for the 5170 and "over-produced" it, I would agree. But that relates more to Patek ramping up production significantly on all of its watches since 2010 and the global watch market softening over the past 2+ years. It has nothing to do with the mechanical soundness of the 5170.

Originally Posted by KarlS

I think the 5170G is drop dead gorgeous and if I had the money or liked chrono's would definately be in my collection. PP also seldom keeps everyone happy...innovate too radically and everyone bitches about PP DNA, evolve proven designs and moving too slowly!! When I last checked PP wasn't a charity but a very profitable business as can be seen by their October incoming.

You make some very good points and I recognize that while Patek has been innovating in both movements and designs in certain instances (always taking risks which is commendable), I think the OP's point and where I share common ground, is that we get many references (perhaps the "bread and butter" references of the catalog) with the same movement generation after generation while the case gets blown up.

Lets take the 3940 for instance with the 240Q. 3940 is the legendary automatic perpetual calendar at 36mm, and then Patek decides to increase the case size to 37mm and leaves the same movement, and then again a few years later increases the size with the 5327 to 39mm and again just leaves the same movement.

This same situation applies to a number of other references in the catalog.

I guess you could say, "if it ain't broke, why fix it", but it does frankly just feel like someone is cutting corners. Why not take the approach of Lange on the datograph when they went from 39mm to 41mm and re-design the entire movement? Or why not take the approach Patek took with the 5170/5270 and design a movement!

Just look at the movement in the 5196.... clearly the movement is TOO small for the size of the case and reason why there is a solid caseback on this.

[KarlS]

I think the 5320 has a larger 324 SQ but I am not really as fussed....I own a 5524 and that movement case / case size is enough to make a WIS foam at the mouth!!!

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by KarlS

I think the 5320 has a larger 324 SQ but I am not really as fussed....I own a 5524 and that movement case / case size is enough to make a WIS foam at the mouth!!!

32mm movement in a 42mm case doesn't do it for me, but I'm far from a WIS. To each his own.

[martinr]

What's funny is everyone wants a bigger movement but thinks the micro rotor on the cal. 240 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[KarlS]

@Tony64 I believe it's a 31 mm movement the same as 5164. Personally a proven movement for an extra 2 mm I go for proven!! As you say each to his own!

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by martinr

What's funny is everyone wants a bigger movement but thinks the micro rotor on the cal. 240 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I remember when making things smaller and thinner was the pinnacle of horology... Now it seems thicker and larger giving it better aesthetics and easier to manufacture seems to be the prize

[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by Tony64

32mm movement in a 42mm case doesn't do it for me, but I'm far from a WIS. To each his own.

IIRC the 27-70 movement inside the 42mm case 5070 was 27.5mm in diameter.

[Russell996]

I've never understood the reasoning behind needing to make a bigger movement to fit a bigger case, surely the skill is in making a small movement that can fit many case sizes. Would a 240 or 324 movement at nearer 40 mm be any better? Of course not, they would simply be larger for the sake of making them larger, no more no less.

[cinch]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I've never understood the reasoning behind needing to make a bigger movement to fit a bigger case, surely the skill is in making a small movement that can fit many case sizes. Would a 240 or 324 movement at nearer 40 mm be any better? Of course not, they would simply be larger for the sake of making them larger, no more no less.

I think it only matters when it has a negative effect on the design of the dial layout. For instance the small seconds on the 5196 being too high up.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

IIRC the 27-70 movement inside the 42mm case 5070 was 27.5mm in diameter.

I believe you're right, and it's one of the few criticisms I've read of that reference. The 5070 is an iconic watch that's justifiably loved despite its "imperfections". Subjectively stated, of course.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by cinch

I think it only matters when it has a negative effect on the design of the dial layout. For instance the small seconds on the 5196 being too high up.

^^^^^This.
Movement/case size disparity impacts dial design often forcing "creative" ways to compensate.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

IIRC the 27-70 movement inside the 42mm case 5070 was 27.5mm in diameter.

I believe 30mm movement, but yes same logic applies and that's the one "flaw" of the 5070. Ironically the smaller movement made way for very creative designs: stepped case, placement of subdials etc that resulted in a very cool watch in the 5070!


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[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I've never understood the reasoning behind needing to make a bigger movement to fit a bigger case, surely the skill is in making a small movement that can fit many case sizes. Would a 240 or 324 movement at nearer 40 mm be any better? Of course not, they would simply be larger for the sake of making them larger, no more no less.

For me it's about watchmaking vs jewelry. Does each new watch designed need to be accompanied by a new movement? No, not at all, but when the recycling of movements becomes the norm and all that is changing is the beautification of the case and dial surrounding the movements......


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[Tony64]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

I believe 30mm movement, but yes same logic applies and that's the one "flaw" of the 5070. Ironically the smaller movement made way for very creative designs: stepped case, placement of subdials etc that resulted in a very cool watch in the 5070!


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Excellent point, Thomas. The 5070 is a beautiful design precisely because of this imperfection. It's just hard to come up with another example of a reference that similarly benefits from such a size disparity.

[Passionata]

I guess you may know a company called Rolex and they basically had two movements for a million watches per year and out of these two only one was inhouse the other they ve outsourced from Zenith :-)
I agree the cal215 is just to small and i doubt it d be a big effort to design a new simple handwound movement for the purists,the cal.29 is a great movement and like it very much ,the 240 is gorgeous and still my favorite.I must confess the 324 is not my cup of tea I just don t like that plain half dish rotor sorry I know many of you die for it but that particular movement is the reason which removes a couple of PP references from my wish list.

[Starguru]

I personally would love a 5960, but thinner, without the rotor. It does have a power reserve indicator, after all. The thickness of that watch is a real turn off for me.

Or a 5170, but with a 60 minute (instantaneous jumping) subdial hand and a 12 hour subdial.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

I disagree that 5170 has been a disaster. It is a fabulous chronograph with an excellent movement. Mechanically many claim it has a better movement than its predecessor, the 5070. IMO it has better proportions than the 5070. If you are referring to the fact that Patek over-estimated the demand for the 5170 and "over-produced" it, I would agree. But that relates more to Patek ramping up production significantly on all of its watches since 2010 and the global watch market softening over the past 2+ years. It has nothing to do with the mechanical soundness of the 5170.

Could not agree more! 5170 is a grail for me. If Patek made 1/3 as many people would be fighting each other for them in the streets!

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

For me it's about watchmaking vs jewelry. Does each new watch designed need to be accompanied by a new movement? No, not at all, but when the recycling of movements becomes the norm and all that is changing is the beautification of the case and dial surrounding the movements......


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Last year we had the introduction of the 5930, this year the 5320 - both adding new complications based on proven base movements, both enlarging the size of the calibre to perfectly fit the new case design.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

I believe 30mm movement, but yes same logic applies and that's the one "flaw" of the 5070. Ironically the smaller movement made way for very creative designs: stepped case, placement of subdials etc that resulted in a very cool watch in the 5070!


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are you sure? I think the 27-70Q was 30 mm which powered the 3970. The 36 mm case gave a movement / case ratio of 83%. The 5070 with a 27.5 mm movement and 42 mm case is much lower at 65% and the highly ridiculed 5524 with 31/42 is 74%....now I am sure some WIS has the answer for the "Golden Ratio" which would have little relevance as its importance is all relative to the owner...

Nobody seems to mind that about the 5070 due to its collectibility....but yes the 5196 does look plain silly although that movement has been used as far back as 2003 when the 5116 was launched with only a 36 mm case...

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Last year we had the introduction of the 5930, this year the 5320 - both adding new complications based on proven base movements, both enlarging the size of the calibre to perfectly fit the new case design.

Originally Posted by KarlS

are you sure? I think the 27-70Q was 30 mm which powered the 3970. The 36 mm case gave a movement / case ratio of 83%. The 5070 with a 27.5 mm movement and 42 mm case is much lower at 65% and the highly ridiculed 5524 with 31/42 is 74%....now I am sure some WIS has the answer for the "Golden Ratio" which would have little relevance as its importance is all relative to the owner...



Nobody seems to mind that about the 5070 due to its collectibility....but yes the 5196 does look plain silly although that movement has been used as far back as 2003 when the 5116 was launched with only a 36 mm case...

Originally Posted by Passionata

I guess you may know a company called Rolex and they basically had two movements for a million watches per year and out of these two only one was inhouse the other they ve outsourced from Zenith :-)
I agree the cal215 is just to small and i doubt it d be a big effort to design a new simple handwound movement for the purists,the cal.29 is a great movement and like it very much ,the 240 is gorgeous and still my favorite.I must confess the 324 is not my cup of tea I just don t like that plain half dish rotor sorry I know many of you die for it but that particular movement is the reason which removes a couple of PP references from my wish list.

Thanks guys and great thoughts and commentary. Have a great Sunday and be well!


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[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by KarlS

I think the 5320 has a larger 324 SQ but I am not really as fussed....I own a 5524 and that movement case / case size is enough to make a WIS foam at the mouth!!!

If that were true they would have changed the movement reference number which relates to the diameter of the movement per PP history.

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Could not agree more! 5170 is a grail for me. If Patek made 1/3 as many people would be fighting each other for them in the streets!

Hand down the new movement is much better than the old. Incredibly the Lemania movements came with a warning in the instructions that continual use of the chronograph would cause premature wear. This was due tot the fact that the gears were angled to ease meshing which weakened them. The new movement has a hacking feature, wow, and a dynomometric crown tpp prevent over winding.

All that being said the 5170s are terrible sellers, can easily be had at dealer cost, and lose major value on resale from there. The 5070s are far better values long tern at this point. The point made earlier that the production was ratchetted up to meet a demand that turned out softer than thought may be a reason. I love the 5170, have had both the yellow and white and would jump at a platinum. But the market is what it is for them.

[Passionata]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

All that being said the 5170s are terrible sellers, can easily be had at dealer cost, and lose major value on resale from there. The 5070s are far better values long tern at this point. The point made earlier that the production was ratchetted up to meet a demand that turned out softer than thought may be a reason. I love the 5170, have had both the yellow and white and would jump at a platinum. But the market is what it is for them.

i m wondering do you have the pause when running chrono second hand reaching the 60seconds mark and the minute counter moves forward?