Increasing Number Of Fake Vintage Submariners

[Craft&Tailored]

Hey Guys,

I thought I would share this as we are starting to see a ton of vintage "replica" or fake Rolex Submariners and Tudor Submariners start to surface even within the professional side of the vintage watch community. Modern Fake or non genuine rolex watches are obviously extremly common but there are a few good vintage fakes out there as well..

The intention of this post is to inform you as the consumer and to always look closely at the details. Although this watch to me looks completely off with just one slight glance I possess an advantage that the average collector or enthusiast may not yet possess as this is what I do for a living and look at on average 20-30 vintage sport pieces on any given day. The average untrained eye and entry level buyer or collector may not notice these details.

I wanted to share with you the process in which I walk through when I am looking at every single piece to potentially buy and also when evaluating a vintage watch and more specifically vintage sports model Rolex's

I wanted to use this Rolex Submariner Ref 5513 that was shown to us today as an example as this piece could pass quite easily and I wanted to show some of the not so obvious details that may slip under the radar for the average enthusiast looking to purchase a vintage Submariner...




The watch was presented to us as a 1968 Meters First ref 5513. First obvious details one may notice is the insert is clearly not authentic based on typical fonts seen on an era correct Fat Font submariner insert and the Lume dot or "Pearl" has a metal surround which is also not correct for this piece. The other thing that immediately jumps out to me is that the patina or fading on the insert looks manufactured or created... Now a replacement or nonauthentic insert doesn't always mean that the watch we are looking at is "fake" or non-authentic. But when it comes to "patina" or fading the one rule of thumb I have always kept in mind is that if it looks overdone or manufactured then it most likely is... Ture patina and fading is something that is hard to fake... Patina is something that takes time and is earned so to speak...

Next thing I look at is the dial under a loupe with at least 10x magnification. We use a very special loupe that also possesses U.V. light watch will also react with the tritium used in the early Radium and more commonly seen Tritium based lume on the dials of the vintage sports range of Rolex watches. The patina or coloration of this lume is consistent and even but kind of a dirty or sandy like coloration which again is not a deal breaker but the consistency of the lume on the watch we are looking at looks off... especially in the hands... This dial when looked at directly under U.V. did not react as it should have by emitting a green glow. The lume plots also under close inspection look blotchy and kind of clumpy. even the most Tropical and distressed dials have some form of uniformity and consistency. Rolex even from the beginning was a stickler when it came to quality control and providing some consistency even though many of the manufacturing processes in the 50', 60's, 70's and 80's were still done by hand. Also, the font is off and not crisp as it should be... the 6's in 660ft are too fat and the text possesses other inconsistencys.

Fake 1968 Ref 5513. Submariner (Font & Lume Details)


Authentic 1968 Ref 5513 Submariner (Font & Lume Details)


The other obvious concern is the serial number. The nonauthentic example possesses a 4.0M serial number which would date the case of the watch to 1975... Meters first dial ceased production in around 1969-1970 and it would be less likely to see a meters first dial in a mid 70's era submariner as a "service" or replacement dial and more likely to see a feet first dial in an earlier watch due to the dial being replaced at a later service interval due to damage or discoloration..

The correct serial number for a 1968 Ref 5513 should be in the 1,752,000-1,900,000 range. The other slight thing to note here is that the stamping of the reference and the serial numbers is shallow and very faint you can barely see it in teh case its so shallow compared to the genuine and correct example as shown.. was hard to capture this with an iphone but you can see the diffrence for examples sake..

Fake 1968 Ref 5513. Submariner (serial number and refrence stamping details)



Authentic 1968 Ref 5513. Submariner (serial number and refrence stamping details)



The crown on this specific example that we are discussing here is also incorrect for a couple of different reasons... Meters first watches if in completely original condition should have a twin lock crown that possesses no dots or underline under the coronet. But again this isn't a deal breaker as many vintage watches received an "upgrade" by Rolex to a Trip- Lock crown during service intervals as a trip- lock crowns provide increased water resistance. But what is interesting here and what makes this non-genuine. Is the spacing of the dots underneath the crown are too close together the Rolex Coronet is also too wide at the bottom and also too short and fat. The mid-case also appears to be non-genuine as well based on the crown guards but as you can see in the pics for comparison below.

Fake Rolex trip-lock crown


Genuine Rolex trip-lock crown shown on 1984 Rolex Submariner Ref. 16800


The last thing that is commonly seen with this type of Fake or non genuine vintageg Rolex is the movement... the movemnt yes is Rolex... but the refrence 5513 uses a Rolex cal 1520 movement and not a cal. 1560..

Incorrect Movement For 1968 Rolex Ref. 5513



Correct Movement Cal. 1520 Rolex Submariner Ref 5513




In closing do your homework and ask questions before buying the piece. The guys who are making these fake examples are clearly catching on that there is a desirability for fake vintage watches and they are getting better and better at figuring out how to potentially dupe a potential buyer who may not possess all the tools and or information needed to make an informed purchase. This example that we reviewed today was one of the better vintage fakes I have personally seen in quite a while. Even the movement to the untrained eye provided the proper sweeping look and was genuine Rolex... Kinda lol

[1675-David]

I believe there are a few inaccuracies in your post but then again I don't handle 30 vintage Rolexes every day and have a super duper UV louper

[U5512]

Where have you been? They've been faking these vintage Rolex & Tudor Subs for the past 15 years.

[thomaspp]

Thanks


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[MonBK]

Originally Posted by U5512

Where have you been? They've been faking these vintage Rolex & Tudor Subs for the past 15 years.

Plus tax.

[Sky21]

Thanks for taking the time to try to educate potential buyers about the pitfalls of buying used Rolex. These same principles of detailed observation can be applied throughout the entire Rolex lineup of watches as the counterfeiters look to exploit buyers in all markets and price ranges.

[springer]

If I may, without hijacking this thread, add some additional info:

Circa 1968, and prior, the lume glows green under a blue light. Around 1968, the lume is changed somewhat in the lume mix and these dial plots glow white.

Case stampings also vary during the 1968 era which have different variations of the number "1" engraving along with the possible absence of the STAINLESS STEEL stamping.

Although the watch presented here has some issues, I would like to see some caseback photos like the ones I have included below. Also included is a green lume shot.

[michaelodonnell123]

The really big problem is when the counter fitters get all of the details right....then it's even more difficult for the inexperienced to distinguish real from fake.

[Valenciawatchrepair]

At first I thought these were going to be true "fakes." Not made by Rolex at all. But, after reading, these are just franken/misrepresented watches. Not that I'm condoning this. If anything, this is worse that an outright counterfeits because spotting this is going to be even harder for the majority of buyers.

[springer]

Originally Posted by U5512

Where have you been? They've been faking these vintage Rolex & Tudor Subs for the past 15 years.

Whole new game now. We're talking fake cases that are indistinguishable from the genuine cases. Not just cases, but specialty dials, regular dials, parts and more.

And...if anyone thinks that only casual collectors or hobbyist sellers are the main source of these faux watches, parts, or cobbled together made-up watches, you might want to be extra careful out there. I've seen plenty of watches lately from dealers that are questionable or not correct.

[Valenciawatchrepair]

Originally Posted by springer

Whole new game now. We're talking fake cases that are indistinguishable from the genuine cases. Not just cases, but specialty dials, regular dials, parts and more.

And...if anyone thinks that only casual collectors or hobbyist sellers are the main source of these faux watches, parts, or cobbled together made-up watches, you might want to be extra careful out there. I've seen plenty of watches lately from dealers that are questionable or not correct.

Agreed. This is a big problem. Sometimes they don't even know what they have is incorrect. There's so much out there that has been changed over the years.

[Craft&Tailored]

Originally Posted by springer

Whole new game now. We're talking fake cases that are indistinguishable from the genuine cases. Not just cases, but specialty dials, regular dials, parts and more.

And...if anyone thinks that only casual collectors or hobbyist sellers are the main source of these faux watches, parts, or cobbled together made-up watches, you might want to be extra careful out there. I've seen plenty of watches lately from dealers that are questionable or not correct.

Appreciate this response... This was the exact intent of this post... The case on this example was completely fake, which is crazy if you think about this....

We are all subject to these vintage fraken fakes... even dealers and seasoned collectors alike... The intent of the post was to inform everyone of what is happening at the front end of this and not to point out that fake Rolex's exist...

I'm also seeing an increasing number of these watches which is interesting and i felt like guys should be aware of this!

lol think some guys missed the intent and purpose of the post lol

[Valenciawatchrepair]

Ugh the case is completely fake? Geeze. Yeah it's getting way to dangerous out there for someone who is not familiar with every detail. It really sucks.

[1675-David]

one of the hardest parts of vintage rolex buying is the inconsistencies, with a vintage Rolex there are no rules, only assumptions and educated guess work. The vintage community thrives on discourse and the sharing of knowledge because back in the day before Rolex was a highly automated manufacturing process a lot of work was done by hand and if they ran out of 5512 casebacks, well they got by with the 5513, a lot of interchangeable parts moved between references and they did what any small company would do and that is make do with whats available to keep the production line moving.
No-one could have foreseen then that a cult of vintage Rolex lovers would develop and haggle endlessly on internet forums over minutia that at the time had no relevance or meaning... and thank you Rolex for that. It's that attitude that make this such a fascinating hobby and at the same time leaves us vulnerable to fakers and unscrupulous dealers looking to make a quick buck off the inexperienced and eager buyer.

[crowncollection]

They are lots around I agree, be careful people


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[Bob the brush]

Caveat emptor folks, I want to buy another Rolex soon, it has to be trusted sellers, them that know, 'cos reading this post,there is so much I just don't know, and my money is hard earned,and I don't want any scumbag to get any where near it. Thanks.

[springer]

One more comment regarding dials. I can't say how many gilt dial watches I have seen lately that have mediocre dials at best with perfect lume plots. It's really incredible and when some smooth talking "reputable" dealer finishes his sales pitch on you, it's too late. You bought it based on the dealer's reputation and sales pitch. This is happening all the time now.

[Craft&Tailored]

Originally Posted by springer

One more comment regarding dials. I can't say how many gilt dial watches I have seen lately that have mediocre dials at best with perfect lume plots. It's really incredible and when some smooth talking "reputable" dealer finishes his sales pitch on you, it's too late. You bought it based on the dealer's reputation and sales pitch. This is happening all the time now.

I agree here as well... Surprisingly I have seen more Gilt then Matte but this is the 3rd matte dial I have seen this month with the same type of case and mismatched movement etc..