Help me develop a "fake" radar

[ABQAnthony]

Hey guys, after my first unsuccessful purchase on eBay (seller received return today, will see how long he decides to hold on to my $ before refund, my guess is the full 6 days lol). I messed up by buying a poor condition example due to bad photos & what I believe were clues to it being a non-authentic.

I am in the market for a vintage datejust but am going to take my time here. I really don't want to have to post a "is this real" thread on every single item i'm considering as i'm sure many of these are "easily spotted", that being said after i've gotten out of the the "clearly fake" I would still ask for opinion on a "if this checks out i'm buying it" basis.

I am hoping to develop some sort of clue as to how to spot a fake. I know the forum generally doesn't post the "reasons" of why one is fake as counterfeiters can use that info to help improve their copies. So after watching quite a few youtube videos and reading guides over the past few months I THINK I have a sort of mental checklist to go over when looking over a watch.

Example 1: Gut says fake
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oyster-Perpe...kAAOSwuGxZldW~

Example 2: not the greatest photos but would guess real to watch & box: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-dateju...oAAOSwk-pZkhpk

[tamiya]

Lets calibrate what fake-sense you've got to work from first... why do you say these are fake?

IMHO

Originally Posted by ABQAnthony

Example 1: Gut says fake
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oyster-Perpe...kAAOSwuGxZldW~

From pics alone I see a 1601 in very very well-worn(out) condition, like 50yrs daily on wrist gone thru several bracelets etc etc... probably beyond redemption if you're hoping to get it repolished to as-new. But hey, it's soul could be solid & with a good service tick for a few decades more. Long as you're happy to look at a shabby case.

Example 2: not the greatest photos but would guess real to watch & box: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-dateju...oAAOSwk-pZkhpk

Doesn't look too bad, if it's had RSC service recently then there's a good checkpoint. No pics of service warranty nor insides though, for real peace of mind... price is bit wishful?

[tamiya]

btw just saying "1601" because seller says it is.

However it's not got the trademark piedish dial as a 160x does.

Dial looks too fresh.

Could be a earlier 60s model or even 50s... possibly even frauddialled Tudor.

Need to know what's inside... :)

[ABQAnthony]

Thanks for the reply! The reason I think its fake or "very franken" is a 1601 is a Datejust not "Date", could chalk that up to seller error i suppose. The "DATE" appears very bold to me on the dial, the case back i've never seen stamped in that manner and the number "1" on the date display appears to be far left compared to center.

ETA: The coronet on dial looks a bit wide to me.

Maybe I'm just super paranoid and will end up paying A.D for a new model or a trusted seller here for piece of mind.

[ABQAnthony]

Double post - apologies!

[ABQAnthony]

adding this is something i'd call out as fake lol:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-Oyster...n/152668063988

The only reason is because of the auth sticker. Model is a "14270" which is an explorer yet dial says yacht master...

thinking hi-jacked account. No feedback in past year, has only sold maybe $600 of product in four years...

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by ABQAnthony

Hey guys, after my first unsuccessful purchase on eBay (seller received return today, will see how long he decides to hold on to my $ before refund, my guess is the full 6 days lol). I messed up by buying a poor condition example due to bad photos & what I believe were clues to it being a non-authentic.

I am in the market for a vintage datejust but am going to take my time here. I really don't want to have to post a "is this real" thread on every single item i'm considering as i'm sure many of these are "easily spotted", that being said after i've gotten out of the the "clearly fake" I would still ask for opinion on a "if this checks out i'm buying it" basis.

I am hoping to develop some sort of clue as to how to spot a fake. I know the forum generally doesn't post the "reasons" of why one is fake as counterfeiters can use that info to help improve their copies. So after watching quite a few youtube videos and reading guides over the past few months I THINK I have a sort of mental checklist to go over when looking over a watch.

Example 1: Gut says fake
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oyster-Perpe...kAAOSwuGxZldW~

Example 2: not the greatest photos but would guess real to watch & box: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-dateju...oAAOSwk-pZkhpk

Look "I" and I believe others are NOT going to teach you how to spot fakes!
I got no intention of looking at dozens of "suspect" pieces by you and confirming your thoughts!

If you post a watch here that you are interested in purchasing I and others will do our very best to offer advice.

No more - no less.

Please do not post watches, which are probably genuine, for our opinion, and your education.
As far as I am concerned at least, its not going to happen

Respectfully
adam

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by ABQAnthony

adding this is something i'd call out as fake lol:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-Oyster...n/152668063988

The only reason is because of the auth sticker. Model is a "14270" which is an explorer yet dial says yacht master...

thinking hi-jacked account. No feedback in past year, has only sold maybe $600 of product in four years...

FAKE
REPORTED - thanks
Adam

[jvmartin]

The 2 models you have posted are vastly different... a fake radar takes years to develop and it typically requires handling watches (including customized pieces)... this helps you know what is out there and what to expect for particular vintages... I would suggest narrowing down to a specific vintage and only buying from a reputable seller with an established history... but the simplest radar rules would be, if it's too good to be true, don't believe it. Also, if there aren't several (10+) detailed photos, don't bother.

[tamiya]

Originally Posted by ABQAnthony

Thanks for the reply! The reason I think its fake or "very franken" is a 1601 is a Datejust not "Date", could chalk that up to seller error i suppose. The "DATE" appears very bold to me on the dial, the case back i've never seen stamped in that manner and the number "1" on the date display appears to be far left compared to center.
ETA: The coronet on dial looks a bit wide to me.

Suggest most likely it's not a 160x

Caseback signed like that is not uncommon on the Oysters of the preceding decade or 2... 1950s, 1960s. Especially on Tudors of that age.

Dial of that elaborate artdeco fussiness I haven't seen commonly (but I'm no RWC encyclopaedia) and they're usually a lot more understated elegance, they'd use interesting textures like linen or honeycomb rather than drawing tons of lines all over.

That was also era where for the slightest mark or dirt showing watchmakers loved to repaint your dial, to change to aftermarket or quite commonly redial a Tudor to Rolex.

Maybe I'm just super paranoid and will end up paying A.D for a new model or a trusted seller here for piece of mind.

If budget can accomodate, it's always nice to buy underwear fresh from the factory

The other thing you must work out... are you buying as a Project in Progress or are you wanting something Ready to Wear immediately? Different price points & different market audience for either, minimal overlap.

[tamiya]

Originally Posted by jvmartin

The 2 models you have posted are vastly different... a fake radar takes years to develop and it typically requires handling watches (including customized pieces)... this helps you know what is out there and what to expect for particular vintages... I would suggest narrowing down to a specific vintage and only buying from a reputable seller with an established history... but the simplest radar rules would be, if it's too good to be true, don't believe it. Also, if there aren't several (10+) detailed photos, don't bother.

& #3: if the deal is good AND legit, it'll probably be sold before you see it

No joke on the years... I've been fingering "Swiss" watches for 40yrs+ no stranger to jewellers & watch dealers when I was younger; mechanicals are cool but also think electronics are nifty too.

Been on fleaBay pre Y2K, jeez that's nearly 20yrs.

Helps heaps to know what you're handling in person, plus I've a hobby in photography too which helps calibrate what items looks like after they're photographed.

There's always a price to risk... just a matter of how you pay it. Pay top dollar at local AD for the least risk. Or take a gamble online.

[GLADIATOR]

removed.
My error

[ABQAnthony]

Originally Posted by tamiya

Suggest most likely it's not a 160x

Caseback signed like that is not uncommon on the Oysters of the preceding decade or 2... 1950s, 1960s. Especially on Tudors of that age.

Dial of that elaborate artdeco fussiness I haven't seen commonly (but I'm no RWC encyclopaedia) and they're usually a lot more understated elegance, they'd use interesting textures like linen or honeycomb rather than drawing tons of lines all over.

That was also era where for the slightest mark or dirt showing watchmakers loved to repaint your dial, to change to aftermarket or quite commonly redial a Tudor to Rolex.



If budget can accomodate, it's always nice to buy underwear fresh from the factory

The other thing you must work out... are you buying as a Project in Progress or are you wanting something Ready to Wear immediately? Different price points & different market audience for either, minimal overlap.

That's all very good information! It makes me cringe to think of how many people went with a refinished dial. My budget can't really accommodate an A.D at this time as I just got in to the hobby and thought $2500-$3k would get a decent piece If i must I will wait and buy a newer model from a trusted seller as maybe my expectations aren't in line with reality on these vintage models.

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

FAKE
REPORTED - thanks
Adam

Yes! Got one lol

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Look "I" and I believe others are NOT going to teach you how to spot fakes!
I got no intention of looking at dozens of "suspect" pieces by you and confirming your thoughts!

If you post a watch here that you are interested in purchasing I and others will do our very best to offer advice.

No more - no less.

Please do not post watches, which are probably genuine, for our opinion, and your education.
As far as I am concerned at least, its not going to happen

Respectfully
adam

Hey Adam, thanks for your perspective. I respect your opinion and have seen quite a few posts of your that 'saved' someone big time. I by no means intended to post dozens. Perhaps, I could permanently upload the photos on here so that future members will be able to scroll through and gauge how well they can spot a fake so that it's not a ton of effort for simply "my" education but rather an unknown number of future readers.

Originally Posted by jvmartin

The 2 models you have posted are vastly different... a fake radar takes years to develop and it typically requires handling watches (including customized pieces)... this helps you know what is out there and what to expect for particular vintages... I would suggest narrowing down to a specific vintage and only buying from a reputable seller with an established history... but the simplest radar rules would be, if it's too good to be true, don't believe it. Also, if there aren't several (10+) detailed photos, don't bother.

This is great advice! Unfortunately there is no A.D in my state so I'm kinda stuck comparing vintage photos from trusted sellers to eBay sellers photos. Your second rule here of "if there aren't 10+ DETAILED" photos. If I were selling a used cell phone I would take better photos than many of these eBay sellers!

Originally Posted by tamiya

& #3: if the deal is good AND legit, it'll probably be sold before you see it

No joke on the years... I've been fingering "Swiss" watches for 40yrs+ no stranger to jewellers & watch dealers when I was younger; mechanicals are cool but also think electronics are nifty too.

Been on fleaBay pre Y2K, jeez that's nearly 20yrs.

Helps heaps to know what you're handling in person, plus I've a hobby in photography too which helps calibrate what items looks like after they're photographed.

There's always a price to risk... just a matter of how you pay it. Pay top dollar at local AD for the least risk. Or take a gamble online.

Rule #4 - I am not a lucky person so you're probably very correct on that! It can cost a fortune to be ignorant, and honestly without this forum I would've been a sucker thinking i got a "great deal" on my first purchase.

[ABQAnthony]

To recap the collective knowledge of this board.

#1 - Study the model, if anything is out of place, pass.
#2 - Just because something is different (such as a signed case back) doesn't mean it's not authentic, it could just be uncommon. Research further before writing it off.
#3 - Be aware of refinished dials.
#4 - Don't look at the Rolex line as a whole. Narrow your search down to one specific model so that you can better identify things that are out of place.
#5 - If it's too good to be true....it takes 5 minutes to determine the approximate value of any model out there, no seller is going to list a "buy it now" $1-$2k below market value on a buy it now auction.
#6 - If there is an auction that has run towards the end on a "great" deal, be suspicious if its authentic and a good bargain it's either sold or has competition. Research further.
#7 - If the photos are fuzzy, blurry or limited - walk away. If you were selling an item for this price would you upload poor photos?

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by ABQAnthony

adding this is something i'd call out as fake lol:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-Oyster...n/152668063988

The only reason is because of the auth sticker. Model is a "14270" which is an explorer yet dial says yacht master...

thinking hi-jacked account. No feedback in past year, has only sold maybe $600 of product in four years...

Removed by ebay

[beshannon]

My first recommendation would be to stop trying to buy on EBAY.

[ABQAnthony]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Removed by ebay

Nice! Maybe saved someone.

Originally Posted by beshannon

My first recommendation would be to stop trying to buy on EBAY.

Funny you should say that....

The seller received his watch on Saturday. I reached out to him to make sure and ask if he was going to refund quickly or wait out the 6 days. He replied that he would love to refund BUT he doesn't have the money he states that he had sold a president for $9k on eBay and the buyer of that did a return as well but has apparently spent both of our money in the past 10 days. He sent me a screenshot of his PayPal balance negative almost $11,000.

He's a nice enough guy, not sure if he's being 100% honest about the situation. I contacted my credit card company a bit nervous about the situation. After I explained the rep said "we don't care if he has the money or not, his bank does, or his merchant processor does. This is a non-issue, he accepted a return and has not refunded the money. The liability ultimately ends with the merchant processor so he can work out how to repay them".

This made me feel a lot better. The downside of this is that at best i'm looking at 15 days, at worst 75 days. My credit card will be credited tomorrow, but being that i paid via PayPal with my credit card then paid my credit card from my bank account that leaves my CASH watch money tied up on a credit card "credit" if that makes sense....

So, moral of the story and i'm sure those reading this have either learned it first hand, and if you haven't.... you will.

UNLESS YOU ARE AN EXPERT (I am not) ONLY BUY FROM A TRUSTED SOURCE AND BUY THE SELLER FIRST.