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Old 3 August 2016, 04:43 AM   #1
speedolex
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What Are Your Thoughts On This 5513











Came across a 1964 Submariner, my birth year, has obvious sentimental value and I've always wanted a no-date Sub. No box, no papers, no bracelet.

The seller told me the dial was original, designed for a 5512, and that Rolex often put a dial from one reference to another during transitional periods. From my research, I thought a '64 would have a gilt dial, but not sure what to make of that or the sellers commentary.

Any light the experts can shed on this would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 3 August 2016, 05:18 AM   #2
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A '64 Sub should absolutely be gilt. That dial is a matte 5512 dial, and I believe, because of the Submariner on the top line, a service dial.
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Old 3 August 2016, 05:36 AM   #3
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A '64 Sub should absolutely be gilt. That dial is a matte 5512 dial, and I believe, because of the Submariner on the top line, a service dial.
Thank you Kingface, any thoughts on the bezel originality or case thickness?
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Old 3 August 2016, 05:37 AM   #4
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service insert too and probably the hands, it's also been polished more than a few times, if the price is right an cool daily wear.
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Old 3 August 2016, 05:51 AM   #5
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service insert too and probably the hands, it's also been polished more than a few times, if the price is right an cool daily wear.
Would ~$5,000 be acceptable or too high?
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Old 3 August 2016, 05:59 AM   #6
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$5K is quite reasonable for a 5513 but you have a watch with a dial that doesn't match the era and hands whose color doesn't match the lume on the dial.
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Old 3 August 2016, 06:08 AM   #7
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I could see the lighter hands being a point of constant...what's the word....consternation every time I checked the time. You might THINK you'll get over it, and you certainly may, but it could equally drive you bananas if you're prone to that sorta thing....(full confession: I am)
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Old 3 August 2016, 06:20 AM   #8
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It looks like one of the crownguards is almost gone, that would be a serious dealbreaker for me.
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Old 3 August 2016, 09:09 AM   #9
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$5K is quite reasonable for a 5513 but you have a watch with a dial that doesn't match the era and hands whose color doesn't match the lume on the dial.
What does a good 5513 with proper service dial, matching service hands, and service bezel go for?

I actually prefer service parts because it gives me a watch in near new condition. This particular example is bothering me due to the mismatch and some of the other comments other posters have made.
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Old 3 August 2016, 10:59 AM   #10
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It looks like one of the crownguards is almost gone, that would be a serious dealbreaker for me.
Yikes!
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Old 3 August 2016, 11:01 AM   #11
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What does a good 5513 with proper service dial, matching service hands, and service bezel go for?

I actually prefer service parts because it gives me a watch in near new condition. This particular example is bothering me due to the mismatch and some of the other comments other posters have made.
Michael Morgan has excellent examples that will satisfy your needs.
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Old 3 August 2016, 11:04 AM   #12
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Despite it is the service dial, it looks so beautiful.
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Old 3 August 2016, 11:30 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by speedolex View Post
What does a good 5513 with proper service dial, matching service hands, and service bezel go for?

I actually prefer service parts because it gives me a watch in near new condition. This particular example is bothering me due to the mismatch and some of the other comments other posters have made.
Not sure about a 5513 with service parts but a clean, original 5513 from a reputable dealer starts around $7K-ish.
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Old 3 August 2016, 11:54 AM   #14
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Michael Morgan has excellent examples that will satisfy your needs.
Who is Michael Morgan and how do I reach him?
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Old 3 August 2016, 03:33 PM   #15
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Who is Michael Morgan and how do I reach him?
Michael's a good guy:

http://www.iconicwatchcompany.com


For future reference though, sometimes Google is a lot quicker than waiting for an answer on a message board
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Old 3 August 2016, 03:35 PM   #16
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www.iconicwatchcompany.com

Michael Morgan is the business owner.
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Old 3 August 2016, 11:03 PM   #17
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Wrong dial
Service dial
Service insert
Luminova hands
No bracelet
lugs overpolished
...

Plenty of better fish in the sea
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Old 3 August 2016, 11:35 PM   #18
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Agree with others. Keep looking. Price is fair if it runs good, but better off paying more for something in better condition.
Good luck on the hunt.
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Old 4 August 2016, 01:22 AM   #19
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Oh boy what a mess.
I would pass for 5k. The only thing original is the midcase and maybe the movement.
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Old 4 August 2016, 04:28 AM   #20
speedolex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbyvm View Post
Wrong dial
Service dial
Service insert
Luminova hands
No bracelet
lugs overpolished
...

Plenty of better fish in the sea
Quote:
Originally Posted by droptopman View Post
Agree with others. Keep looking. Price is fair if it runs good, but better off paying more for something in better condition.
Good luck on the hunt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing Zero View Post
Oh boy what a mess.
I would pass for 5k. The only thing original is the midcase and maybe the movement.
Thank you all for your help, I will avoid this.

If anyone knows of a 1964 5513 with clean white preferably RSC dial/hands replacements please PM me! Birthyear 5513 is the new grail.
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Old 4 August 2016, 08:42 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by speedolex View Post
Thank you all for your help, I will avoid this.

If anyone knows of a 1964 5513 with clean white preferably RSC dial/hands replacements please PM me! Birthyear 5513 is the new grail.
Maybe get a pledge membership and post a WTB ad?
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Old 4 August 2016, 12:20 PM   #22
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Maybe get a pledge membership and post a WTB ad?
Would it also allow me to sell pieces as well?
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Old 4 August 2016, 01:01 PM   #23
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Would it also allow me to sell pieces as well?

Yes I believe it does👍🏻

I get the sense based on your posts you prefer the white lume NOS look and I also like that look on many pieces.
But if you haven't handled a negative relief gilt dialed watch, please check out some gilt dials in the flesh. Good condition gilt dials are really amazing in person. It is hard to capture in pics or describe but they just do incredible things in different lighting. One of the best things Rolex has ever done IMHO. Truly a work of art.
There are some great 1964 gilt 5513's out there.
Just something to consider.
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Old 4 August 2016, 01:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droptopman View Post
Yes I believe it does👍🏻

I get the sense based on your posts you prefer the white lume NOS look and I also like that look on many pieces.
But if you haven't handled a negative relief gilt dialed watch, please check out some gilt dials in the flesh. Good condition gilt dials are really amazing in person. It is hard to capture in pics or describe but they just do incredible things in different lighting. One of the best things Rolex has ever done IMHO. Truly a work of art.
There are some great 1964 gilt 5513's out there.
Just something to consider.
I'm inclined to agree. When I first got my ('66) gilt I remember staring it at for the first few weeks every time it was on my wrist. They're truly something special in real life.
This is one of my favorite 1964 gilt Sub examples. Everything about it...
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Old 4 August 2016, 02:28 PM   #25
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Would it also allow me to sell pieces as well?
Yep..membership has its privileges
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Old 4 August 2016, 02:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droptopman View Post
Yes I believe it does👍🏻

I get the sense based on your posts you prefer the white lume NOS look and I also like that look on many pieces.
But if you haven't handled a negative relief gilt dialed watch, please check out some gilt dials in the flesh. Good condition gilt dials are really amazing in person. It is hard to capture in pics or describe but they just do incredible things in different lighting. One of the best things Rolex has ever done IMHO. Truly a work of art.
There are some great 1964 gilt 5513's out there.
Just something to consider.
Sure, they're amazing, but the prices .... Ouch!. HQ Milton had a stunning 1964 Sub recently, listed at $34K. It was sold, but you can still find the photos of it on the website by searching 1964. A '64 Sub with service replacement dial and hands would probably be a third of the price, probably even cheaper. Good luck in your search.
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Old 5 August 2016, 12:29 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by droptopman View Post
Yes I believe it does����

I get the sense based on your posts you prefer the white lume NOS look and I also like that look on many pieces.
But if you haven't handled a negative relief gilt dialed watch, please check out some gilt dials in the flesh. Good condition gilt dials are really amazing in person. It is hard to capture in pics or describe but they just do incredible things in different lighting. One of the best things Rolex has ever done IMHO. Truly a work of art.
There are some great 1964 gilt 5513's out there.
Just something to consider.
Thanks, but truth be told I'm not going to spend over $7,000 for a 5513. My daily wearer's, that's my financial limit before thinking that what I'm wearing costs real money and I'd baby it. It's just a personal ceiling I've found I'm comfortable with.

What I'm considering now to get in a birth-year 5513 that's semi-authentic would be this:

Buy this '64 5313 for under $5,000
Find a matte two-line dial for $X,XXX
Find a 78360 bracelet w/proper endpieces for $X,XXX

....and wind up with a 1964 5513 daily wearer with a 2-line dial with matte lume hour markers and be happy.

Question is, do you think this can be done for $7,000?
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Old 5 August 2016, 02:41 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by speedolex View Post
Thanks, but truth be told I'm not going to spend over $7,000 for a 5513. My daily wearer's, that's my financial limit before thinking that what I'm wearing costs real money and I'd baby it. It's just a personal ceiling I've found I'm comfortable with.

What I'm considering now to get in a birth-year 5513 that's semi-authentic would be this:

Buy this '64 5313 for under $5,000
Find a matte two-line dial for $X,XXX
Find a 78360 bracelet w/proper endpieces for $X,XXX

....and wind up with a 1964 5513 daily wearer with a 2-line dial with matte lume hour markers and be happy.

Question is, do you think this can be done for $7,000?
No. Vintage parts especially original dials come at a premium.
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Old 6 August 2016, 07:01 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by speedolex View Post
Thanks, but truth be told I'm not going to spend over $7,000 for a 5513. My daily wearer's, that's my financial limit before thinking that what I'm wearing costs real money and I'd baby it. It's just a personal ceiling I've found I'm comfortable with.

What I'm considering now to get in a birth-year 5513 that's semi-authentic would be this:

Buy this '64 5313 for under $5,000
Find a matte two-line dial for $X,XXX
Find a 78360 bracelet w/proper endpieces for $X,XXX

....and wind up with a 1964 5513 daily wearer with a 2-line dial with matte lume hour markers and be happy.

Question is, do you think this can be done for $7,000?
Yes you can do it.

I've seen Meter First Matte dials sell for around $1000-1500 on VRM
You can probably sell your Matte 5512 Service dial for around $500-800
Why 78360? 78360's are for GMT's.
I would go for a C&I for the cheap route, 7206 for the expensive route. 93150 for the mid route.

But because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. a Meter First or Feet First 5513 dial is as incorrect as a 5512 Service dial . They are all incorrect. so just keep the 5512 service dial in the watch.
If it was me, the first thing I would replace are those blinding white hands. You can get a nice set of 5513 Tritium hands for around $500.
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Old 6 August 2016, 12:17 PM   #30
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Yes you can do it.

I've seen Meter First Matte dials sell for around $1000-1500 on VRM
You can probably sell your Matte 5512 Service dial for around $500-800
That's good news, net I'd be ~$400 out of pocket, not bad. Are the 2-line meter first service dials hard to come by or frequent in your opinion?

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Why 78360? 78360's are for GMT's.
I would go for a C&I for the cheap route, 7206 for the expensive route. 93150 for the mid route.
The 78360 is my favorite vintage bracelet, I find it's extremely comfortable on me and it's a perfect Rolex tweener- not as flimsy/lightweight as a riveted bracelet and not as heavy/bulky as the later day SEL bracelets. Unless you are saying that a 78360 would not fit or look inappropriate on a 5513?

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But because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. a Meter First or Feet First 5513 dial is as incorrect as a 5512 Service dial . They are all incorrect. so just keep the 5512 service dial in the watch.
While incorrect historically on a '64, at least the 2-line service dial is what was intended for the 5513 as opposed to the 4-line service dial that was intended for a 5512. I don't mind (actually, I prefer) a mint service dial to an aged original dial, but I do want it to have the original type.

Quote:
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If it was me, the first thing I would replace are those blinding white hands. You can get a nice set of 5513 Tritium hands for around $500.
Ah, but it's the inverse for me. I want to keep the blinding white hands and find a blinding white 2-line service dial. I have nothing against gentle khaki patina, but if given a choice I want a matching set of bright white dial/hands not yellowed. Just personal preference.
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