Getting my first AP RO, need help & advise !! (dial swap watch vs original dial)

[Jnzo]

Hey AP experts,

I'm looking to obtain my first AP RO; I have narrowed it down and targeted 15300ST. Since I'm currently based in China for work, trying to track down a watch that I'm comfortable and confident with in regards to its origin and authenticity took some time.

As of now, I managed to find a private seller who has a 15300ST.02 (blue dial) and another grey market dealer who has a 15300ST.03 (black dial); below is the detail of the 2 watches and where my dilemma lies.

15300ST (blue dial) - private seller
- box + paper
- has a dial changed (from white dial to blue dial) done but it does not have the dial change receipt or documentation.

15300ST (black dial) - grey market dealer
- box + paper + tag + original purchase receipt

After connecting with the private seller, I have established a pretty good relationship with him (we became somewhat of a friend) and he has told me (what he can about the history in regards to the watch), he is not the sole owner of the watch, and the watch apparently had a dial changed done before him but it has no documentation against it; the paper states it is a white dial (.01). I wrote to AP in regards to this, they been very friendly and helpful but basically refuse to comment on if they allowed a white -> blue dial changed or not back in the day, but mentioned that it is not a service they offer now; in the end of the day, they made it quite clear that until I send the watch in, they can't give me an answer on this (which also means i'm not sure if i can even get them to verify or provide documentation against the dial swap even when i send it in).

as of now, the private seller is offering a decent price after we became 'friend', lower than the asking price of the dealer (I have yet start negotiating with him, but i doubt it will drop too much).

So I'm now faced with the dilemma of either getting a blue dial with a slightly lower price (but no documentation against the swap and papers showing that it is a white dial) vs. an original black dial with the full set including tags + original receipt.

what is everyone's thought on this and which one should I (or would you) go for ?

Thanks in advance for your answers & suggestion !!


BR,

J

[edslee327]

i'd prefer getting something with all original parts... i'm just thinking of the worst case scenario if AP takes it in for servicing and maybe refuses to touch it if a dial is replaced? (sounds more like a rolex thing to do...)

if you're leaning towards a blue dial, but the only thing holding you back is that dial swap, they maybe wait it out if you can until one pops up? price i'm assuming ultimately isn't the top priority since we're looking at $25-35k watches, so think about what'll make you happy in the long run and spend more and/or wait longer until that chance comes around

[fullofboats]

A dial swap without documentation from AP scares me. No way to know if the new dial is authentic or if other parts have been swapped out without a full extract/AP authentication.

This kind of piece won’t hold value especially without documents or the original dial. I’d pass even for a 50% discount


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[chiscott_29]

I always say buy the seller, and really at this point the only thing that doesn't make me scream "RUN" on the private seller deal is that you have built a rapport with them and seem to have a level of trust.

Personally, I couldn't complete this deal given it's a dial swap with no documentation. That's just too risky as is, but as fullofboats said above, you're going to get destroyed on resale if that matters to you.

[edslee327]

i will say, kudos to the seller to at least disclosing the dial swap... a lot of sellers might just not bother mentioning it, thinking you'd never notice... but would hope that the cost of the watch already accounts for the fact that the dial's not original, in which case, resale value for you in a few years may not be too far off from what you paid?

[fullofboats]

Originally Posted by edslee327

i will say, kudos to the seller to at least disclosing the dial swap... a lot of sellers might just not bother mentioning it, thinking you'd never notice... but would hope that the cost of the watch already accounts for the fact that the dial's not original, in which case, resale value for you in a few years may not be too far off from what you paid?

I don’t think the dial swap is priced in based on OPs description. Seller is pricing his Frankenstein blue RO, which is actually a white RO without the original dial at near the price of a full set original black RO from a dealer

I wouldn’t buy it without swap documents from AP as I care about resale. But if I were to buy to just enjoy for myself I’d push for a massive +50% discount. Try to figure what a grey dealer would pay for such a piece and offer slightly above.


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[supernova]

I would also not touch a dial swapped watch unless I had proof AP made the change.


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[Jnzo]

Originally Posted by edslee327

i'd prefer getting something with all original parts... i'm just thinking of the worst case scenario if AP takes it in for servicing and maybe refuses to touch it if a dial is replaced? (sounds more like a rolex thing to do...)

if you're leaning towards a blue dial, but the only thing holding you back is that dial swap, they maybe wait it out if you can until one pops up? price i'm assuming ultimately isn't the top priority since we're looking at $25-35k watches, so think about what'll make you happy in the long run and spend more and/or wait longer until that chance comes around

------

Thanks for the sharing; and yea, I think dial swap is the thing that is making it conflicting for me; I havn't been able to see the watch in person since the guy is in another city; but from I see and by looking dial swap related convo on here; it does look like at one point AP did offer the service (obviously with a price), the seller said that previous seller was able to tell him how much it cost for him to do it but again, no receipt or documentation around it. and even though AP did not address specifics points against it but they didn't seem like they were against servicing / taking a look at it.

Another thing that I'm not too certain with is 'waiting', it feels like the longer I wait on this, the chances of coming across one in good condition diminishes (not to mention the possibility of price increase in the future)

-J

[Jnzo]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

A dial swap without documentation from AP scares me. No way to know if the new dial is authentic or if other parts have been swapped out without a full extract/AP authentication.

This kind of piece won’t hold value especially without documents or the original dial. I’d pass even for a 50% discount


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check, thanks for your thoughts!

-J

[Jnzo]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

I always say buy the seller, and really at this point the only thing that doesn't make me scream "RUN" on the private seller deal is that you have built a rapport with them and seem to have a level of trust.

Personally, I couldn't complete this deal given it's a dial swap with no documentation. That's just too risky as is, but as fullofboats said above, you're going to get destroyed on resale if that matters to you.

—————
Maybe I’m still exploring my way around the aftermarket watch scene here in China, the concept of buy the ‘seller’ is not as easy since there are just too many of them and not often a lot of source to check their credibility (also, fabricating positive feedback is a common practice here).

Well, I think resale value isn’t going to be my top priority, but ease of mind knowing that it is an authentic watch is more of the key for me.

Thanks for your thought and feedback, maybe I can see if the current owner can approach AP with the watch to obtain some form of documentation to prove it.

-J

[Jnzo]

Originally Posted by edslee327

i will say, kudos to the seller to at least disclosing the dial swap... a lot of sellers might just not bother mentioning it, thinking you'd never notice... but would hope that the cost of the watch already accounts for the fact that the dial's not original, in which case, resale value for you in a few years may not be too far off from what you paid?

—————

Haha yea, that’s why we became kind of a friend in a sense; but again, it came with the original box and paper, the ref # would have given it away anyway.

And I think the generous discount / offer he ended on agreeing to has a lot to do the fact that he is aware the value would not sit on par with a genuine blue dial ? But again, is just that ease of mind when it comes to authenticity that makes it harder for me, it looks great tho, I gota say.

-J

[Tomas Eriksson]

It won't be an issue down the line with a dialed swap when it comes to service. Audemars up until very recently didn't have any restrictions on swaping dials. I myself bought dial for my 15400st from the la fusterie boutique in Geneva two years ago.

[Jnzo]

Originally Posted by Tomas Eriksson

It won't be an issue down the line with a dialed swap when it comes to service. Audemars up until very recently didn't have any restrictions on swaping dials. I myself bought dial for my 15400st from the la fusterie boutique in Geneva two years ago.

-----

So in your experience, it is a service (dial swap) that AP actually did provide ? but to my knowledge , even if they swap the dial, in their archive system, it will still show the 'original' dial color and wont be adjusted to the new dial, is that correct?

-J

[Jnzo]

Originally Posted by Tomas Eriksson

It won't be an issue down the line with a dialed swap when it comes to service. Audemars up until very recently didn't have any restrictions on swaping dials. I myself bought dial for my 15400st from the la fusterie boutique in Geneva two years ago.

-------

So in your experience, it is a service (dial swap) that AP actually did provide ? but to my knowledge , even if they swap the dial, in their archive system, it will still show the 'original' dial color and wont be adjusted to the new dial, is that correct?

-J

[Tomas Eriksson]

Originally Posted by Jnzo

-----

So in your experience, it is a service (dial swap) that AP actually did provide ? but to my knowledge , even if they swap the dial, in their archive system, it will still show the 'original' dial color and wont be adjusted to the new dial, is that correct?

-J

I have the spare dial at home. The original dial for my 15400st will still be silver according to the serial number. Haven't done it but they said that I could just pop by the boutique and have them swap dial whenever I felt like it. I live in Sweden and haven't been in Switzerland in a while...

[lx384]

Tomas is right. AP does allow dial swaps. I'm not sure for now (2021), but as of mid last year, when I asked AP if I could swap a white to a blue dial (older model RO), they said no problem, just bring it to the service center. I decided against it though, as I wanted to keep the watch in its original condition. But it was good to know that I had that option if I ever want to do it. My wife owns a RO with a swapped dial. No receipt to proof. No issues when it was sent for service.

I think the "dial swap" issue will bother buyers if you do sell the watch in the future. But there will always be buyers who are less picky as long as it is priced accordingly.

[Jnzo]

Originally Posted by lx384

Tomas is right. AP does allow dial swaps. I'm not sure for now (2021), but as of mid last year, when I asked AP if I could swap a white to a blue dial (older model RO), they said no problem, just bring it to the service center. I decided against it though, as I wanted to keep the watch in its original condition. But it was good to know that I had that option if I ever want to do it. My wife owns a RO with a swapped dial. No receipt to proof. No issues when it was sent for service.

I think the "dial swap" issue will bother buyers if you do sell the watch in the future. But there will always be buyers who are less picky as long as it is priced accordingly.

----

thanks for this information.

do you have any idea on the implication of the age on an AP RO, I realized the blue dial (with the dial swapped w/ box and paper) one i'm looking at is a F series (2001-2007) which is more of the earlier gen of 15300ST , but there is another options of blue dial (no box & paper) that is a H series (2011-2012); will there things to be consider about an older version of the AP RO or not ?

BR,

JEff.

[Jnzo]

Originally Posted by lx384

Tomas is right. AP does allow dial swaps. I'm not sure for now (2021), but as of mid last year, when I asked AP if I could swap a white to a blue dial (older model RO), they said no problem, just bring it to the service center. I decided against it though, as I wanted to keep the watch in its original condition. But it was good to know that I had that option if I ever want to do it. My wife owns a RO with a swapped dial. No receipt to proof. No issues when it was sent for service.

I think the "dial swap" issue will bother buyers if you do sell the watch in the future. But there will always be buyers who are less picky as long as it is priced accordingly.

----

thanks for this information.

do you have any idea on the implication of the age on an AP RO, I realized the blue dial (with the dial swapped w/ box and paper) one i'm looking at is a F series (2001-2007) which is more of the earlier gen of 15300ST , but there is another options of blue dial (no box & paper) that is a H series (2011-2012); will there things to be consider about an older version of the AP RO or not ?

BR,

J