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Old 30 June 2020, 04:26 PM   #31
scurfa
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Originally Posted by horseShu View Post
These auctions are a form of marketing.
Just like the $17m Paul Newman Daytona.
Many still suspect the secretive buyer is Rolex themselves.

And why not? This is a $17m marketing ad that keeps on giving.

People are still talking about it even today.

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It’s no secret, apparently Rolex purchased the 1680 comex later that day for over $500,000 at Antiquorum.


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Old 30 June 2020, 04:42 PM   #32
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In certain locales there aren’t necessarily trusted gray market options like in the US, Asia and parts of Europe. This is the best alternative, and Phillips is viewed as trustworthy, or even prestigious source.

It’s also possible that grays who are hoarding these pieces may bid up the price figuring it’s OK to overpay for one if they have 20 more in the safe that they can then sell for even more of a premium. We’ve all seen the photos on Instagram of gray dealers with dozens of GMTs in a briefcase or safe.


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This . Also not all money launderers have Billions to lounder, some only have 5 or 10mil to clean, and are watch collectors too. Might as well clean their money, and get something they understand how to deal with.
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Old 30 June 2020, 05:00 PM   #33
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Hey BG,

How long have you been doin’ this?
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Old 30 June 2020, 05:18 PM   #34
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Why would it be laundering. It's hard to understand if you don't roll in those circles.

Someone who buys items at Philips auctions might of spent a few grand more on the watch, that's fine.... That delta buys a nice dinner somewhere for a group of people. Whatever.
It may be far less a hit than what was saved buying a few pieces of art for 100s of thousands.
These watches are disposable almost in the big leagues or buying luxury art and items

Or they might try and launder a few thousand in one of the most regulated and policed auctions globally. Yeah... Ok haha
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Old 30 June 2020, 08:30 PM   #35
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“... And in the event of an economic downturn, fine watches may turn out to represent a safe-haven asset, like metals or gems, for investors looking to diversify their portfolios. Or they may just be another of-the-moment asset that 1 percenters, flush with cash, have inflated to unsustainable proportions...”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...tches.amp.html

“... During the bear market of 2008 to 2009, too, prices for some high-flying vintage models, including Paul Newmans, dipped by 30 to 40 percent, said Matthew Bain, a dealer of fine watches in Miami Beach. But, like stocks, they bounced back to new highs...”
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Old 30 June 2020, 08:52 PM   #36
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in one of the most regulated and policed auctions globally
Can you share more on that? Asking out of interest to know.

From past reading and news, the global art market is rife fraud and sometimes that spillover into auctions as well. Does law enforcement pay attention to auctions and who polices these events? I’m unsure of what type of AML checks are in place tbh.
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Old 30 June 2020, 09:30 PM   #37
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Been in marketing for over 40 years before retiring, Rolex is one of the best!
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Old 30 June 2020, 10:51 PM   #38
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Another interesting idea posed by Paul Thorpe - https://youtu.be/ZWjL0wmpZV8

Possibly Rolex themselves bought them? This actually could make a lot of good business sense.
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Old 30 June 2020, 10:55 PM   #39
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Dealers driving up prices??? Most dealers I know are looking to rip someone off not pay double retail lol
Dealers agreeing to pay double to exchange similar merchandise artificially inflates prices and sets up the rip off because they can now point to these results to charge more.
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Old 30 June 2020, 11:01 PM   #40
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I doubt any laundering is done at the modern Rolex level. If this occurs it happens at the six figure plus pieces. Art has been used for decades for laundering, as have cars, houses and just about anything else. I don't see why not watches.
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Old 30 June 2020, 11:28 PM   #41
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Another interesting idea posed by Paul Thorpe - https://youtu.be/ZWjL0wmpZV8

Possibly Rolex themselves bought them? This actually could make a lot of good business sense.

I don’t buy that but I can understand why it may be a popular theory.
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Old 1 July 2020, 12:10 AM   #42
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People are still talking about it even today.
We're making fun of the possible 'fraud', yet yes there's no such thing as bad press. Maybe the auction houses hope more fools rush in to auction their timepieces with them, and thus they make more $$$ for commissions?

A fool and their money....
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Old 3 July 2020, 02:29 PM   #43
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Paul Thorpe said in a video that it is probably Rolex themselves buying the watches. It's marketing. People are talking about the auction and their watches. Success I would say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
Another interesting idea posed by Paul Thorpe - https://youtu.be/ZWjL0wmpZV8

Possibly Rolex themselves bought them? This actually could make a lot of good business sense.
No offense to either of you (and I really, really hope Paul Thorpe ends up reading this somehow) but having watched a few of Mr. Thorpe's "groundbreaking" videos, I'm prone to believe the opposite of whatever he suggests.

He's got a great speaking voice, but most of his points are loosely based on hypotheticals formed from one or two anecdotal stories or observations; other times, it's rumors or speculation. I've never really heard him support any "theory" he had with empiricism or even negative empiricism (having one counterpoint disprove another theory). It's entertainment, and very little else.

In the case of "business sense" and Rolex buying the watches, no, it absolutely does not make sense. He proposes that Rolex would drive higher prices to move their stuff- but why was it GMTs getting higher prices? Do Rolex retailers struggle to sell GMTs?

I won't get into it very further, at the risk of boring others here- but you can reason that out for yourself. Big claims need big evidence, and this guy doesn't really deliver the latter.
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Old 3 July 2020, 02:30 PM   #44
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Hey BG,

How long have you been doin’ this?
Not long enough apparently
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Old 3 July 2020, 09:52 PM   #45
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Rolex or grey dealer sitting on 100+ 126710. Cheap marketing.
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Old 3 July 2020, 11:27 PM   #46
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Rolex or grey dealer sitting on 100+ 126710. Cheap marketing.
Yup, and i know at least one of my 'grey' dealers has been funneling timepieces to auction houses. Actually two of them come to think of it. Am pretty sure many do, of course, to move some inventory. High auction prices let them move their inventory prices upward as a result.

Call it 'lost leader' sales, to then profit from higher prices for the vast majority of in-stock inventory.
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Old 3 July 2020, 11:33 PM   #47
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From what I've read, Rolex representative was indeed present at the auction.
"Last but not least, Rolex is actively buying vintage Rolex during the auctions. This is not something new as Mrs Ravera has been present during the auction since a long time. But she never bid by herself so far and always used a middle man. Last weekend she was by herself bidding successfully on the stunning Chrono 6232 at Phillips and so far I know she secured also the pink 6034 at Antiquorum as well as the Comex 1680"
Source: http://rolexpassionreport.com/28428/...ons-june-2020/

For the modern references I still believe it's people who are trying to influence the market.
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Old 4 July 2020, 01:36 AM   #48
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Hey, fair enough. It's a possibility, though it leaves me wondering why they wouldn't go through Chrono24 or something. *shrug*

Interesting conversation.

I agree with what you listed above.

Honestly, if I was a millionaire or billionaire, I would probably buy it at Phillips too.

Seems more legit that buying it on chrono24 (which to a rich guy might seem like the eBay of watches) or a trusted seller that I myself don’t know.

Plus, when the bois ask me where I bought it, Phillips sounds cooler than “some grey dealer” or “chrono24”




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Old 4 July 2020, 01:59 AM   #49
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In certain locales there aren’t necessarily trusted gray market options like in the US, Asia and parts of Europe. This is the best alternative, and Phillips is viewed as trustworthy, or even prestigious source.

It’s also possible that grays who are hoarding these pieces may bid up the price figuring it’s OK to overpay for one if they have 20 more in the safe that they can then sell for even more of a premium. We’ve all seen the photos on Instagram of gray dealers with dozens of GMTs in a briefcase or safe.


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This is what my thinking tells me.


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Old 4 July 2020, 02:00 AM   #50
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Have you seen those photos with dozens of hot models hoarded by dealers?
At these economic conditions they aren't flying off the shelves. One way to save prices is to put an absurd winning bid on most popular auctions. Notice prices aren't that inflated under regular auctions. Only severely inflated on major auction houses with lots of press coverage.
"Hey, seen the news? It just sold for 30k at [x], here's mine much cheaper, only 25k."
Lots of grey dealers in my area are posting these inflated auction results on their instagram once results were out. 'Educating' people how cheap their current inventories are.

That makes sense too.


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