Electric cars.

[904VT]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Sophisticated EVs have a heater for the battery which your Hybrid doesn‘t have. Your example is extreme and has nothing to do with the reality of EVs.

I believe MG had issues with their heaters and they didn’t work as expected?

Also, some manufactures recommend not using cabin heat in the Winter to persevere battery. Still a long ways to go.

What powers the battery heaters?

I haven’t heard of any manufactures producing battery coolers for the high temps though.

[904VT]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I agree, Hydrogen seems to be the grail, why they are not dedicating all the resources to that solution instead of (battery powered) EVs.

I’ve been in research university powered hydrogen fuel cell vehicles hundreds of occasions and they are really nice. Feels just like ICE for those that are nostalgic and want an interactive experience and some soul in their engines.

You should check out the Toyota Mirai Paul. Available for sale in the US. You guys in California have fuel sites, though I think <25 still total.
Locations of fueling sites:

https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-repor...ogen-refueling

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by 904VT

I believe MG had issues with their heaters and they didn’t work as expected?

Also, some manufactures recommend not using cabin heat in the Winter to persevere battery. Still a long ways to go.

What powers the battery heaters?

I haven’t heard of any manufactures producing battery coolers for the high temps though.

It’s a non-issue. Also, with the adoption of heat pumps, the creation of cabin heat isn’t so power hungry. EVs also cool the battery in hot weather. It’s all powered from the massive battery. Yes, all of that is a net negative but it’s really a non-issue.


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[zengineer]

Originally Posted by 904VT

I believe MG had issues with their heaters and they didn’t work as expected?

Also, some manufactures recommend not using cabin heat in the Winter to persevere battery. Still a long ways to go.

What powers the battery heaters?

I haven’t heard of any manufactures producing battery coolers for the high temps though.

Many EVs have cooling systems for the batteries. Heat management, ventilation, fire containment, protection from road debris , EMI/RFI shielding...all part of the battery systems. I'm involved with at work. It's really still in it's infancy, everyone is approaching it differently.

[East Bay Rider]

Anyone remember the cargo ship (Felicity Ace) full of EVs that sank off the coast of Portugal because it was burning so hot that it melted through the hull?

https://insurancemarinenews.com/insu...damage-estate/

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

Anyone remember the cargo ship (Felicity Ace) full of EVs that sank off the coast of Portugal because it was burning so hot that it melted through the hull?

https://insurancemarinenews.com/insu...damage-estate/

No, but I remember some high school chemistry.


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[zengineer]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

Anyone remember the cargo ship (Felicity Ace) full of EVs that sank off the coast of Portugal because it was burning so hot that it melted through the hull?

https://insurancemarinenews.com/insu...damage-estate/

Know what else burns really well? A full tank of gasoline.

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[JoeJoeBobo]

Originally Posted by zengineer

Know what else burns really well? A full tank of gasoline.

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That’s why they aren’t shipped with full tanks, quite opposite. Expressly the reason EV lithium batteries and EV powered vehicles cannot be flown is the volatility.

When was the last time an ice vehicle just spontaneously set a house or tanker ablaze. Insurance rates are considerably higher on EV vehicles for this reason and has occurred many times then ice vehicles in EV vehicles short existence….just google it.

https://getjerry.com/electric-vehicl...irthday-candle

Just working on a EV incorrectly can electrocute the mechanic or EMS person.

[zengineer]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeBobo

That’s why they aren’t shipped with full tanks, quite opposite. Expressly the reason EV lithium batteries and EV powered vehicles cannot be flown is the volatility.



When was the last time an ice vehicle just spontaneously set a house or tanker ablaze. Insurance rates are considerably higher on EV vehicles for this reason and has occurred many times then ice vehicles in EV vehicles short existence….just google it.



https://getjerry.com/electric-vehicl...irthday-candle



Just working on a EV incorrectly can electrocute the mechanic or EMS person.

Yes, I know how cars are shipped. I was commenting on the overall result of something bad happening to a car...an accident, parked in a structure that catches fire for some reason other than the vehicle, etc.

I know all about thermal runaway events with electric vehicles. I've seen the testing in person on single cells, full batteries and complete vehicles. But I also know the rarity of it in the field and the developments that over time will virtually eliminate it.

Cars have been catching fire while parked for decades. Just this year alone Ford, Kia and 3 other companies have recalls for engine fires, including recommending owners park outside until repairs/modifications are made.

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[East Bay Rider]

Originally Posted by zengineer

Know what else burns really well? A full tank of gasoline.

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I've seen several ICE cars burn to the ground. It's the interior and tires that burn the longest. Surely not hot enough to melt through the hull of a ship.
At least we know that if we die in an EV fire the cremation is free.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeBobo

That’s why they aren’t shipped with full tanks, quite opposite. Expressly the reason EV lithium batteries and EV powered vehicles cannot be flown is the volatility.

When was the last time an ice vehicle just spontaneously set a house or tanker ablaze. Insurance rates are considerably higher on EV vehicles for this reason and has occurred many times then ice vehicles in EV vehicles short existence….just google it.

https://getjerry.com/electric-vehicl...irthday-candle

Just working on a EV incorrectly can electrocute the mechanic or EMS person.

And yet, with these challenges (and I admit there are problems to overcome), COUNTRIES continue the process of banning ICE only vehicles in the next 10-15 years or so. EV sales close to DOUBLED over last year (albeit a still small percentage, it is rising very very fast), CAR MANUFACTURERS announce the will be all EV in the next several years (Porsche comes to mind), and BILLIONS is being spent by governments and businesses on research and implementation (charging stations, new batteries etc).

But of course, as soon as the THOUSANDS of scientists, environmentalists, and engineers that are powering this transition read the thread from Joe Bobo, they are all going to change their minds and say: “Yeah, he has something there, we will just forget it and go back to all ICE powered vehicles.

It’s the future, lOVE it or hate it, bury your head in the sand, do whatever you want, it is happening.

[JoeJoeBobo]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

And yet, with these challenges (and I admit there are problems to overcome), COUNTRIES continue the process of banning ICE only vehicles in the next 10-15 years or so. EV sales close to DOUBLED over last year (albeit a still small percentage, it is rising very very fast), CAR MANUFACTURERS announce the will be all EV in the next several years (Porsche comes to mind), and BILLIONS is being spent by governments and businesses on research and implementation (charging stations, new batteries etc).

But of course, as soon as the THOUSANDS of scientists, environmentalists, and engineers that are powering this transition read the thread from Joe Bobo, they are all going to change their minds and say: “Yeah, he has something there, we will just forget it and go back to all ICE powered vehicles.

It’s the future, lOVE it or hate it, bury your head in the sand, do whatever you want, it is happening.

Why is this about me? Lol

I thought it was about EV’s. Since you are obviously on one side you discredit the scientist, politicians and engineers groups who disagree that EV will save the planet and agree it’s a virtue signal cash grab because everyone agrees money rules the world and scientist can be swayed by it just like you!

No that long ago there were scientist who said we would soon enter and ice age before global warming was the next fear grift. Scientist are proven wrong everyday but since the ones you agree with you you quote for your argument.

Remember the dinosaur's? Well they ended up extinct well before global warming and scientist can’t agree how that actually happened. Why think they can predict the future that hasn’t like you think they can!

It’s about changing the world while spending mass amounts of money to make more using fear and control to do it. Fact

I can do this with you as long as keep quoting me I had actually forgotten you!

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeBobo

Why is this about me? Lol

I thought it was about EV’s. Since you are obviously on one side you discredit the scientist, politicians and engineers groups who disagree that EV will save the planet and agree it’s a virtue signal cash grab because everyone agrees money rules the world and scientist can be swayed by it just like you!

No that long ago there were scientist who said we would soon enter and ice age before global warming was the next fear grift. Scientist are proven wrong everyday but since the ones you agree with you you quote for your argument.

Remember the dinosaur's? Well they ended up extinct well before global warming and scientist can’t agree how that actually happened. Why think they can predict the future that hasn’t like you think they can!

It’s about changing the world while spending mass amounts of money to make more using fear and control to do it. Fact

I can do this with you as long as keep quoting me I had actually forgotten you!

If I am reading your post right, and I fully admit I may be doing it wrong, you insinuate that this, the conversion to EVs, is an attempt just to make more money? By (I guess) governments and car manufacturers and scientists? I could not wholeheartedly disagree more. This transition is costing BILLIONS of dollars, to invent new technologies, new Electric infrastructure, etc. To make more money all the entities we have discussed would be much better off to continue improving the ICE industry. I admit, maybe I misunderstood what you said.

Please, feel free to quote me anytime, but just so I understand, a straight up question, and please answer me straightly (is straightly a word? ). Let me rephrase, answer me directly with a yes or a no.

Is it your opinion, that sometime, perhaps immediately, perhaps a few years from now, but prior to the ban on ICE powered vehicles, the governments, businesses, environmentalists, all the people and organizations that I mentioned above, that have spent BILLIONS of dollars and countless hours of effort, in many different countries, will come to the conclusion they are wrong and reverse all these steps and ICE vehicles will continue to be the dominant type? I realize they are right now, and will be for decades, but is it your belief that the steps to convert to an EV (or hydrogen or?) powered vehicle civilization will all be withdrawn and forgotten and we will continue like we have for the last 100 or so years? (ICE as the main source).

Is that your opinion?

I am off to the gym (in my EV) right now but I look forward to reading your response!

[zengineer]

I've read that before designing and building the Model T, Henry Ford had asked people on forums what they wanted.

The consensus was a faster horse.

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[bondtoys]

When I see the spirit of some here, I wonder how we all progressed from the stone age.

Unfortunately EVs became a political football and many naysayers have no problems using ACs at home ( with a heavy impact to the power grid and generated by burning fuel/coal) or are totally ok with the environmental impact of producing, transporting and burning fuels in EVs.

EVs are just at the beginning of their evolution, there are issues that can have to be solved, but considering that EVs (how we know them) are on the market for such a short time, they are not half as bad as many commenters imagine them to be.

And the car manufacturers have moved on for some time and will move to EVs more and more.
They have learnt that consumer demand is shifting in that direction - far too late may I say.

But better late than never

[JoeJoeBobo]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

If I am reading your post right, and I fully admit I may be doing it wrong, you insinuate that this, the conversion to EVs, is an attempt just to make more money? By (I guess) governments and car manufacturers and scientists? I could not wholeheartedly disagree more. This transition is costing BILLIONS of dollars, to invent new technologies, new Electric infrastructure, etc. To make more money all the entities we have discussed would be much better off to continue improving the ICE industry. I admit, maybe I misunderstood what you said.

Please, feel free to quote me anytime, but just so I understand, a straight up question, and please answer me straightly (is straightly a word? ). Let me rephrase, answer me directly with a yes or a no.

Is it your opinion, that sometime, perhaps immediately, perhaps a few years from now, but prior to the ban on ICE powered vehicles, the governments, businesses, environmentalists, all the people and organizations that I mentioned above, that have spent BILLIONS of dollars and countless hours of effort, in many different countries, will come to the conclusion they are wrong and reverse all these steps and ICE vehicles will continue to be the dominant type? I realize they are right now, and will be for decades, but is it your belief that the steps to convert to an EV (or hydrogen or?) powered vehicle civilization will all be withdrawn and forgotten and we will continue like we have for the last 100 or so years? (ICE as the main source).

Is that your opinion?

I am off to the gym (in my EV) right now but I look forward to reading your response!

Lol. Many so called smart people also said Crypto was the future. I believe there are many threads here on it. Even one new one that now asks is crypto dead.

Something will soon come along that will change all your experts minds like the grid crashing, minerals extinct, hydrogen power etc. Lets not forget the EMP or hack of power plant that can keep from using that electric in event of emergency.

I guess you missed the part where I said we also own an EV…Taycan to be exact. But that doesn’t mean I drink kool-aid or pat myself on the back about saving the planet.

I’m sure those fighter jets I read you talk about flying will on day be battery powered too and the trains and the tankers and the power plants and earth movers and ocean liners, freighter and the private and commercial planes etc.

Don’t forget to recycle your water bottle after your workout that you feel your doing doing your part. Lol

[RichardBartlett]

As the owner of three old motorbikes I have a vested interest in not wanting the world to go EV
BUT EVs are by far the most exciting thing that's happened to transportation for decades.
ICE has pretty much reach its development life and it's mainly tweaking 100 year old technology
EVs are in reality only a few years in and already better than most ICE in most aspects

Sure there's a way to go but what an amazing journey it's going to be. I'll be too old to enjoy it but I for one remain fascinated by how far this can go and tbf I'm likely to be dead long before the tech is replaced by God knows what

My ex father in law was one of those involved in the film "the great global warming swindle" so I'm well versed in global warming and the politics which has skewed the science but I remember him saying to me back in the mid eighties "oil is an amazing product, it's far too valuable to just be setting light to it" He was far more concerned with pollution which was and is a major global concern, than MMGW which in his (and mine) isn't was or ever will be.

EVs are not the sole answer but they are part of the solution

IMHO

[East Bay Rider]

Originally Posted by zengineer

I've read that before designing and building the Model T, Henry Ford had asked people on forums what they wanted.

The consensus was a faster horse.

Sent using Tapatalk

EVs are being pushed by city dwellers / industrialists / environmental sympathizers because they believe that everyone lives in cities or suburbs living lives similar to their own.
Your horse analogy is useful because it shows that while the townfolk adopted automobiles for play and travel, the hard or dirty work was still being done by teams of horses. This short sighted thinking will not play well with light and medium duty ICE vehicles that work for a living off the city grid or seldom even see asphalt. The aforementioned environmental sympathizers seldom venture into the world where hard, dirty work is performed so they don't realize the need for vehicles capable of working independently.
Perhaps someone will invent a mobile battery charging truck that travels to worksites and farms to "refuel" all the cars and trucks in the field.

[zengineer]

I am honestly no where near panicked about the gradual or government mandated EVs. Nothing ever moves as fast as politicians pinitially propose. I will likely get one last V8, manual transmission car when the refreshed 2024 Mustang is out this summer.
EVs are absolutely a better choice than ICE for many commuters, delivery routes, school busses, urban taxis, etc. It wouldn't work as an only vehicle for me but then again no vehicle would. I lived with an EV for 2 weeks in Europe earlier this year. My daily commute was maybe 70 miles round trip. I visited some places 90 miles away one way on the weekends and did all my charging at the hotel.

EVs may or may not be less polluting if you look at the total cradle to grave footprint but there is something to be said for reducing ICE traffic in big congested cities by having more EVs in those local areas.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeBobo

Lol. Many so called smart people also said Crypto was the future. I believe there are many threads here on it. Even one new one that now asks is crypto dead.

Something will soon come along that will change all your experts minds like the grid crashing, minerals extinct, hydrogen power etc. Lets not forget the EMP or hack of power plant that can keep from using that electric in event of emergency.

I guess you missed the part where I said we also own an EV…Taycan to be exact. But that doesn’t mean I drink kool-aid or pat myself on the back about saving the planet.

I’m sure those fighter jets I read you talk about flying will on day be battery powered too and the trains and the tankers and the power plants and earth movers and ocean liners, freighter and the private and commercial planes etc.

Don’t forget to recycle your water bottle after your workout that you feel your doing doing your part. Lol

No, I remember the part you owned an EV, which is why I find your comments so confusing. Please do not put words in my mouth, I never said I thought I was saving the world by transitioning to an EV, the main reason I wanted one is I never wanted to buy gas again, or deal with oil changes, etc. The fighter jets I used to fly, and the trains and ships, etc. Will they ever be powered by Battery? I have no idea, I never suggested they would be and neither has anyone else, the title of this thread is Electric CARS. IF, I read your post right, you are saying you believe that EVs (or hydrogen) will be reinstated and this transition effort will all be halted and reversed, like the believers in crypto were wrong. Then, I have nothing to argue with you about, because time will prove you wrong. If you think this incredibly expensive and intensive effort to transition away from ICE is going to simply disappear, you will be proven wrong. It will take decades, but it is coming.

Oh, and is reminding me to recycle my water bottle (which I do by the way) to quote: “feel doing doing your part… LOL” an insult? I fail to see why an individual “doing their part” to conserve resources, reduce waste etc. Is deserved of an insult, but I guess considering the source I shouldn’t be surprised. I have been very respectful to you in this thread, even though we completely disagree on the future of EVs I have acknowledged your right to your opinion and have merely asked for clarification, and you respond by insulting me, insinuating I claim to be saving the world by owning an EV and recycling my water bottle.

How dare I!

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by zengineer

I've read that before designing and building the Model T, Henry Ford had asked people on forums what they wanted.

The consensus was a faster horse.

Sent using Tapatalk

I love it.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

When I see the spirit of some here, I wonder how we all progressed from the stone age.

Unfortunately EVs became a political football and many naysayers have no problems using ACs at home ( with a heavy impact to the power grid and generated by burning fuel/coal) or are totally ok with the environmental impact of producing, transporting and burning fuels in EVs.

EVs are just at the beginning of their evolution, there are issues that can have to be solved, but considering that EVs (how we know them) are on the market for such a short time, they are not half as bad as many commenters imagine them to be.

And the car manufacturers have moved on for some time and will move to EVs more and more.
They have learnt that consumer demand is shifting in that direction - far too late may I say.

But better late than never

Originally Posted by RichardBartlett

As the owner of three old motorbikes I have a vested interest in not wanting the world to go EV
BUT EVs are by far the most exciting thing that's happened to transportation for decades.
ICE has pretty much reach its development life and it's mainly tweaking 100 year old technology
EVs are in reality only a few years in and already better than most ICE in most aspects

Sure there's a way to go but what an amazing journey it's going to be. I'll be too old to enjoy it but I for one remain fascinated by how far this can go and tbf I'm likely to be dead long before the tech is replaced by God knows what

My ex father in law was one of those involved in the film "the great global warming swindle" so I'm well versed in global warming and the politics which has skewed the science but I remember him saying to me back in the mid eighties "oil is an amazing product, it's far too valuable to just be setting light to it" He was far more concerned with pollution which was and is a major global concern, than MMGW which in his (and mine) isn't was or ever will be.

EVs are not the sole answer but they are part of the solution

IMHO

Very well stated, I agree with both of you.

[JoeJoeBobo]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

No, I remember the part you owned an EV, which is why I find your comments so confusing. Please do not put words in my mouth, I never said I thought I was saving the world by transitioning to an EV, the main reason I wanted one is I never wanted to buy gas again, or deal with oil changes, etc. The fighter jets I used to fly, and the trains and ships, etc. Will they ever be powered by Battery? I have no idea, I never suggested they would be and neither has anyone else, the title of this thread is Electric CARS. IF, I read your post right, you are saying you believe that EVs (or hydrogen) will be reinstated and this transition effort will all be halted and reversed, like the believers in crypto were wrong. Then, I have nothing to argue with you about, because time will prove you wrong. If you think this incredibly expensive and intensive effort to transition away from ICE is going to simply disappear, you will be proven wrong. It will take decades, but it is coming.

Oh, and is reminding me to recycle my water bottle (which I do by the way) to quote: “feel doing doing your part… LOL” an insult? I fail to see why an individual “doing their part” to conserve resources, reduce waste etc. Is deserved of an insult, but I guess considering the source I shouldn’t be surprised. I have been very respectful to you in this thread, even though we completely disagree on the future of EVs I have acknowledged your right to your opinion and have merely asked for clarification, and you respond by insulting me, insinuating I claim to be saving the world by owning an EV and recycling my water bottle.

How dare I!

Wow, Your easily insulted because that was not my attempt at it. I stopped quoting you and you apparently just couldn’t quit me. You may now have the last word, cause I’m done…VroomVroom!

[TheVTCGuy]

[904VT]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

And yet, with these challenges (and I admit there are problems to overcome), COUNTRIES continue the process of banning ICE only vehicles in the next 10-15 years or so. EV sales close to DOUBLED over last year (albeit a still small percentage, it is rising very very fast), CAR MANUFACTURERS announce the will be all EV in the next several years (Porsche comes to mind), and BILLIONS is being spent by governments and businesses on research and implementation (charging stations, new batteries etc).

But of course, as soon as the THOUSANDS of scientists, environmentalists, and engineers that are powering this transition read the thread from Joe Bobo, they are all going to change their minds and say: “Yeah, he has something there, we will just forget it and go back to all ICE powered vehicles.

It’s the future, lOVE it or hate it, bury your head in the sand, do whatever you want, it is happening.

Environmentalists today do not care about the cause. If they did they would require all “green” based vehicles to eliminate the use of petroleum based plastics in their vehicles. So long as they do not they are nothing by hypocritical. And they are incentivized by government grants to drag this out as long as possible to get more and more funding. Look what Elon did with carbon credits.

This has everything to do with driving up energy costs in certain markets to price out geopolitical adversaries and shift power balances. And a fight for which currency will price crude in the future as some trying to push the petro dollar out of existence.

This will be exposed over the next 5-7 years. The chaos and market volatility in the meanwhile is what affords the opportunity for realignment later. Always the opportunity in the chaos to develop the situation.

[Star Ferry]

I have read the whole thread, and my takeaway is that I would rather drive a gas powered car, until and unless charging stations are easier to find nationwide than gas stations.

[austinp]

When EVs are equal to ICE for my needs then I’m in. I would love to never need to go to a gas station and I would assume they have a very quiet ride.

$50k half ton Toyota Tundra 4WD truck that gets 500 miles per tank.

Probably will be available eventually.

The environmental stuff is not a factor for me.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by 904VT

Environmentalists today do not care about the cause. If they did they would require all “green” based vehicles to eliminate the use of petroleum based plastics in their vehicles. So long as they do not they are nothing by hypocritical. And they are incentivized by government grants to drag this out as long as possible to get more and more funding. Look what Elon did with carbon credits.

This has everything to do with driving up energy costs in certain markets to price out geopolitical adversaries and shift power balances. And a fight for which currency will price crude in the future as some trying to push the petro dollar out of existence.
.

The main reason, why ICE vehicles are phased out are the emissions, that are released when oil is being burnt in a small unit like a combustion engine - in our cities - and which causes thousands of deaths!
Your point about using plastics in EVs is just a distraction (just like the burning freighter and the need of water incase an EV burns - not by you).

Your last chapter is just a conspiracy theory!
Why don‘t you put the same amount of energy in criticizing burning oil with all consequences like you are trying to find arguments why EVs are evil?

[Aquaholic_user]

MPG now becomes MPC

Sent from my balloon knot

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by austinp

When EVs are equal to ICE for my needs then I’m in. I would love to never need to go to a gas station and I would assume they have a very quiet ride.

$50k half ton Toyota Tundra 4WD truck that gets 500 miles per tank.

Probably will be available eventually.

The environmental stuff is not a factor for me.

That is completely understandable, no matter how you look at it, EVs require a great deal of adjustment from our habits developed from ICE over the last 100 years. They are more expensive, it takes longer to fill (charge) you really have to track charging station locations, you know there are gas stations on every corner and don’t have to think about it, and as you mentioned range. There are some advantages of an EV, no oil changes or other maintenance, reduced cost (MPGE electricity bs gasoline etc. But it is up to the individual consumer to decide if the advantages outweigh the negative points. My prediction, is that gradually, EVs will develop in to equal modes of convenience and cost, I know manufacturers are trying very hard and spending lots of money to try and get there. I truly believe that someday charging will take 5 minutes, the will be a station on every corner, range will be 500 miles and the cost will equal ICE cars. Yeah, I know, we are years away, but I think we will get there.