5711 Corruption

[Patton250]

I’m not sure if this is been discussed before. I’m wondering when you find yourself in a situation where a watch that retails for 28K (it’s barely worth that IMHO) is now being sold in excess of 60K on the secondary market that must leave all kinds of room for corruption within the AD system. What I mean is some poor Patek AD sales guy making $60,000 a year sees these things being sold at such a high price in the grey market must feel like they could get in on the action for at least 10 to 15K themselves by setting up the sale to the grey. Especially if that person is in some sort of money trouble. A 37K markup is obviously a lot of money and I would suspect could easily temp most people who aren’t in the top 1% of income earners. I wonder how corporate Patek is keeping a handle on this? Obviously there are lots of flippers so they certainly aren’t screening the buyers. This is very interesting. A much different situation than buying a green sub for 9.5 K and flipping it for 12 K. I wouldn’t risk my relationship with my Rolex AD for a quick 2.5K profit but 37K............. Man.......

[locutus49]

This has been discussed ad infinitum. IMO it is basically speculation as we don't have solid evidence of ADs selling coveted Pateks to greys. So while you may be right, because the stakes are high insofar as an AD could lose their dealership of the brand, I would be very careful in making allegations. Are you right? I don't know.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by locutus49

This has been discussed ad infinitum. IMO it is basically speculation as we don't have solid evidence of ADs selling coveted Pateks to greys. So while you may be right, because the stakes are high insofar as an AD could lose their dealership of the brand, I would be very careful in making allegations. Are you right? I don't know.

I apologize for bringing it back up then. I should’ve searched for it. I appreciate your comments though.

[aa909]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I’m not sure if this is been discussed before. I’m wondering when you find yourself in a situation where a watch that retails for 28K (it’s barely worth that IMHO) is now being sold in excess of 60K on the secondary market that must leave all kinds of room for corruption within the AD system. What I mean is some poor Patek AD sales guy making $60,000 a year sees these things being sold at such a high price in the grey market must feel like they could get in on the action for at least 10 to 15K themselves by setting up the sale to the grey. Especially if that person is in some sort of money trouble. A 37K markup is obviously a lot of money and I would suspect could easily temp most people who aren’t in the top 1% of income earners. I wonder how corporate Patek is keeping a handle on this? Obviously there are lots of flippers so they certainly aren’t screening the buyers. This is very interesting. A much different situation than buying a green sub for 9.5 K and flipping it for 12 K. I wouldn’t risk my relationship with my Rolex AD for a quick 2.5K profit but 37K............. Man.......

I agree with you 100%. And folks claiming "we don't have evidence" so we can't be certain blah blah blah are just sticking their heads in the sand

I've said it before, these pieces leave the ADs out the side door, and you really don't need to look further than the number of grays selling brand-new or like-brand-new pieces when there's a dearth of supply at ADs to understand what's happening.

But I would stop short of calling it "corruption" because the ADs and grays aren't "stealing" or scamming anyone out of their money. They've created a dislocation between supply and demand to drive prices higher but they're not forcing anyone to pay these inflated prices.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by aa909

I agree with you 100%. And folks claiming "we don't have evidence" so we can't be certain blah blah blah are just sticking their heads in the sand

I've said it before, these pieces leave the ADs out the side door, and you really don't need to look further than the number of grays selling brand-new or like-brand-new pieces when there's a dearth of supply at ADs to understand what's happening.

Amazing how much I can disagree with in a single post.

[Calatrava r]

What you are correct in is the intrinsic value of the 5711. This is meaningless, however, in that it is the supply and demand dynamic which determines value. But intrinsic value still plays a very large role in the supply of things. Yes, to me also, I had a hard time seeimg the value in the 5711 even at the old price of 23K. Outdated movement in a flimsly bracelet with a finicky clasp. Then in 2012, they changed from screws to push pins. (Clearly in my view, a cost savings move, although the company maintains their screws could come out and the pins eliminated this problem) Screws are heavier than the bracelet material so the screws added a definite feel, weight and drape to the watch bracelet which made it elegant. The pins being lighter than the bracelet material took a lot of feel and drape away. Watchbox just has a video where on the table was a 5711 which was touted as having the screws.

So long way around and here we are we. Legitimate buyers who wait for years for these watches, finally get them and realize they are okay but not special. They may be worth retail but are not worth 60K plus. After some thought, with very mixed emotions and deep regret, I suspect, they sell their watches. So it is not dishonest dealers, but rather the old "value for the buck" principal which may be driving the aftermarket supply.

[~JJ]

There’s a large well known AD who was called out on here for doing this a few years back... lots of drama in that thread and I think the company got upset about being mentioned too an admin had to step in.

[Nikrnic]

With that much money being left on the table,,,,, C'mon now.... I know what my gut tells me.

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[ap1]

This comes from personal experience. I know when I wait extended periods for these in demand pieces, the hype builds so much for me. Then 18plus months later or whatever you receive this thing that you’ve built up so much. Then, it kinda disappoints a little. I suspect, that may contribute to you seeing a few like new pieces winding up on forums. During that 18 plus month wait, I’ve already identified 3 other FOMO watches I NEED, cause all I do is see them on all your wrists as I wait. Maybe it’s just me

My problem is this was back just before the craze, so I wasnt cashing out tons of gains.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

What you are correct in is the intrinsic value of the 5711. This is meaningless, however, in that it is the supply and demand dynamic which determines value. But intrinsic value still plays a very large role in the supply of things. Yes, to me also, I had a hard time seeimg the value in the 5711 even at the old price of 23K. Outdated movement in a flimsly bracelet with a finicky clasp. Then in 2012, they changed from screws to push pins. (Clearly in my view, a cost savings move, although the company maintains their screws could come out and the pins eliminated this problem) Screws are heavier than the bracelet material so the screws added a definite feel, weight and drape to the watch bracelet which made it elegant. The pins being lighter than the bracelet material took a lot of feel and drape away. Watchbox just has a video where on the table was a 5711 which was touted as having the screws.

So long way around and here we are we. Legitimate buyers who wait for years for these watches, finally get them and realize they are okay but not special. They may be worth retail but are not worth 60K plus. After some thought, with very mixed emotions and deep regret, I suspect, they sell their watches. So it is not dishonest dealers, but rather the old "value for the buck" principal which may be driving the aftermarket supply.

Really well said. I got to wear one for a day and I was incredibly unimpressed with it. That was when the price tag was 24K. I remember thinking the AP 15400 what is significantly better. Having said that a Patek is a Patek and so there is much value there. I just sincerely don’t understand the price tag for this one. Same goes for the 5711-1R. My Day Date IMHO has a much better build quality. Obviously not as fine-tuned a movement but the quality of the bracelet and case build is better or just as good. Anyway, I agree with your comments 100%.

[Murcielagoboy2]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I’m not sure if this is been discussed before. I’m wondering when you find yourself in a situation where a watch that retails for 28K (it’s barely worth that IMHO) is now being sold in excess of 60K on the secondary market that must leave all kinds of room for corruption within the AD system. What I mean is some poor Patek AD sales guy making $60,000 a year sees these things being sold at such a high price in the grey market must feel like they could get in on the action for at least 10 to 15K themselves by setting up the sale to the grey. Especially if that person is in some sort of money trouble. A 37K markup is obviously a lot of money and I would suspect could easily temp most people who aren’t in the top 1% of income earners. I wonder how corporate Patek is keeping a handle on this? Obviously there are lots of flippers so they certainly aren’t screening the buyers. This is very interesting. A much different situation than buying a green sub for 9.5 K and flipping it for 12 K. I wouldn’t risk my relationship with my Rolex AD for a quick 2.5K profit but 37K............. Man.......

I think the scope to be corrupt is fairly limited if I'm honest. Certainly here in the UK.
Desirable watches aren't always controlled by the AD.

When I got my 5711, Patek UK had stuck my name on the box. I passed on a 5711/1r and Patek UK knew I had. I'm waiting on a 5980/1r - when the watch comes all sealed, once again, it will arrive at my AD with my name on it.

[Fat_ninja]

Corruption nice... there was a sex scandal too lol

[Passionata]

I really doubt dealer gives him so much ,maybe 5k

Btw there s an article on that topic

Thewatchbaron.com

Title is bubble

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

Corruption nice... there was a sex scandal too lol

I wish I could change the title since it seems to bother some of you. My only thinking was that Patek corporate would find an inside sales person at one of their authorized dealers participating in something like this as being corrupt. If you disagree I understand.

[YYR]

Anyone know where I can get a 5711/1a blue?
*ps I only want from an AD because I wanna flip it

[YYR]

I think Tourneau would have one

[hideki4]

The sales guys making 60k a year are rarely ever involved in allocating Nautiluses. It is always the manager, GM, or owner of an AD who decides who gets the Nautiluses.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by hideki4

The sales guys making 60k a year are rarely ever involved in allocating Nautiluses. It is always the manager, GM, or owner of an AD who decides who gets the Nautiluses.

Excellent point however the same applies.

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by hideki4

The sales guys making 60k a year are rarely ever involved in allocating Nautiluses. It is always the manager, GM, or owner of an AD who decides who gets the Nautiluses.

Exactly, it's the owner of the AD who is making an extra $15K on the Nautilus/Aquanaut, and not just on one or two, but on all of them. That's why he (or she) drives a Porsche.

[Uros]

Its not sales persons but ADs owner and close dealers, the same way you are buying low demand pieces at discount on grey market you are getting high demand ones with premium, its the same channel...

Bought my first ap via grey at discount and guarantee was stamped few weeks before by regular AD...no questions asked...


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[Russell996]

Originally Posted by ~JJ

There’s a large well known AD who was called out on here for doing this a few years back... lots of drama in that thread and I think the company got upset about being mentioned too an admin had to step in.

You are conflating two things, the issue you mention was nothing to do with selling pieces out the back door.

Originally Posted by cascavel

Exactly, it's the owner of the AD who is making an extra $15K on the Nautilus/Aquanaut, and not just on one or two, but on all of them. That's why he (or she) drives a Porsche.

You are suggesting the owner of a successful Patek AD can’t afford a Porsche without selling pieces direct to greys for a cut?

[AK797]

Originally Posted by ~JJ

There’s a large well known AD who was called out on here for doing this a few years back... lots of drama in that thread and I think the company got upset about being mentioned too an admin had to step in.

They are back today defending themselves on another forum.

[martinr]

I don’t know whether PP cares about they grey market or not but I do know they read this forum. I know from experience. When my AD invited me as part of a group to tour the manufacture I mentioned it on here. I posted a copy of the invitation and itinerary with names etc. redacted. A couple days later my AD called and said he heard from PP about it and they wanted it removed. So I contacted a mod and they deleted the post. Same AD told me about a customer that had spent four million USD over the years. He got an application piece and promptly sold it at auction. PP cut him off I was told. I don’t know how they do that because he could always buy from another AD or use another name. But the point is they do have this Big Brother is watching attitude. I personally don’t like it.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by AK797

They are back today defending themselves on another forum.

Lol

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by martinr

I don’t know whether PP cares about they grey market or not but I do know they read this forum. I know from experience. When my AD invited me as part of a group to tour the manufacture I mentioned it on here. I posted a copy of the invitation and itinerary with names etc. redacted. A couple days later my AD called and said he heard from PP about it and they wanted it removed. So I contacted a mod and they deleted the post. Same AD told me about a customer that had spent four million USD over the years. He got an application piece and promptly sold it at auction. PP cut him off I was told. I don’t know how they do that because he could always buy from another AD or use another name. But the point is they do have this Big Brother is watching attitude. I personally don’t like it.

So if I dislike someone... I could just OUT them here.

Lol

[aa909]

Luxury items commanding 300% premiums on the aftermarket and you guys really think the ADs aren't going to find a way to take their piece of it??

[martinr]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

So if I dislike someone... I could just OUT them here.

Lol

You could. But don’t be a rat. The sales lady at Tiffany is already gunning for you so to speak.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by martinr

You could. But don’t be a rat. The sales lady at Tiffany is already gunning for you so to speak.

She can gun all she wants her jobs at risk not mine. Suckka

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by Russell996

You are suggesting the owner of a successful Patek AD can’t afford a Porsche without selling pieces direct to greys for a cut?

Yeah. That is the most I've heard in a while.

That explains why I'm so corrupt. I drive a Porsche.

[hideki4]

Originally Posted by AK797

They are back today defending themselves on another forum.

Where?