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Old 21 September 2022, 02:56 AM   #1
PJDIESEL
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Help with mismatched (or fake?) 5512

Hello TRF.

I am looking at a watch offered at auction locally. Lots going on with this particular sale including a Seller (more specifically the auction house as this is a consignment) that is either ill informed... or not being forthright with me. I asked for a photo of the movement and inside of the case back, they replied by saying "the watch is running fine".

In short, what is being presented is a 5512 with a SN of less than 1 Million, serviced in 2016 but then apparently drug down the sidewalk on the crystal.

I realize the bezel insert looking essentially NEW is not a good thing, but I also have some concerns about the font and spacing on the dial and also the bracelet and clasp not being correct for the vintage

Any help or insight is greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Phil





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Old 21 September 2022, 03:00 AM   #2
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Old 21 September 2022, 05:00 AM   #3
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There isn't anything that would scream fake, but the images aren't good enough for a good look. I think that the hands are newer as well as the insert.

There is usually a reason why things go to auction. Frequently it's because more can often be made by up-bidding.

Plexi crystals are easily polished or replaced.
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Old 21 September 2022, 05:06 AM   #4
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I was somewhat thrown off by the wordage on the invoice in the notes section, seems a little casual to me.

Thoughts on the "Rolex" and Submariner lettering being so dark? In most 5512 examples I'm seeing (early 60's?) they are lighter in color. Maybe I'm over simplifying it with the font/spacing/color thing, I'm very new to the idea of a vintage sub.
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Old 21 September 2022, 05:13 AM   #5
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My observations:

1. Pictures are poor
2. The word submariner looks red? Or at least very dark. That’s mysterious to me and looks off
3. Replacement hands
4. The Lume plots look off to me. The glistening of the seven plot would indicate modification to me.
5. obviously unoriginal bracelet

I wouldn’t mess with this unless I could hold it in my hands, and closely inspect it, and see the inside. Unless of course you love surprises.


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Old 21 September 2022, 09:00 AM   #6
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I'm going to get a chance to handle it just before it goes to sale, but..... with limited knowledge/experience....it's still going to be a gamble for me.

I've asked again (in writing this time) for a pic of the movement, at least at that point maybe I'll know if the internals are correct.
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Old 21 September 2022, 11:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJDIESEL View Post
I'm going to get a chance to handle it just before it goes to sale, but..... with limited knowledge/experience....it's still going to be a gamble for me.

I've asked again (in writing this time) for a pic of the movement, at least at that point maybe I'll know if the internals are correct.

It doesn’t even appear that the external‘s are completely correct; but I would be interested in seeing the internals


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Old 21 September 2022, 11:41 AM   #8
PJDIESEL
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Unless the service invoice is fake/altered.... someone at Rolex believed it to be a 5512 and references the S/N....

The question might become, what is the absolute bottom dollar value of a vintage Sub, less than a million S/N, even WITH all the deficiencies?
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Old 21 September 2022, 12:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJDIESEL View Post
Unless the service invoice is fake/altered.... someone at Rolex believed it to be a 5512 and references the S/N....

The question might become, what is the absolute bottom dollar value of a vintage Sub, less than a million S/N, even WITH all the deficiencies?

True, but a lot can happen to a watch in five years.


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Old 21 September 2022, 12:25 PM   #10
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Dial appears to be aftermarket, or poorly redone. They never mixed gold and white text on a dial.
Solid link bracelet, that you can't see the date codes on, don't really trust it but definitely not age correct.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 710096044_zm.jpg (14.5 KB, 284 views)
File Type: jpg 710096134_zm.jpg (47.9 KB, 278 views)
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Old 21 September 2022, 03:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Dial appears to be aftermarket, or poorly redone. They never mixed gold and white text on a dial.
.
They did have gold and white. This dial could be legit but hard to tell with these pictures and scratches on the crystal. Case looks like a polished PCG which is period correct.
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Old 22 September 2022, 12:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJDIESEL View Post
Unless the service invoice is fake/altered.... someone at Rolex believed it to be a 5512 and references the S/N....

The question might become, what is the absolute bottom dollar value of a vintage Sub, less than a million S/N, even WITH all the deficiencies?

And of course how easy to craft ‘papers,’ particularly a service receipt. Bidding on this watch based on this information is wildcatting.


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Old 22 September 2022, 01:15 AM   #13
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Got some more photos from the auction house.

My thought process here (albeit admittedly under limited experience on the topic) would be that for the "right" price it would be an awesome daily.

Thinking of myself as more of a "steward" of the item, maybe to just preserve or revert some of the parts back to what is correct over time? Obviously we can't go back in time and un-rig whatever has been done at this point. image1.jpgimage2.jpgimage0.jpg
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Old 22 September 2022, 02:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJDIESEL View Post
Got some more photos from the auction house.

My thought process here (albeit admittedly under limited experience on the topic) would be that for the "right" price it would be an awesome daily.

Thinking of myself as more of a "steward" of the item, maybe to just preserve or revert some of the parts back to what is correct over time? Obviously we can't go back in time and un-rig whatever has been done at this point. Attachment 1319953Attachment 1319954Attachment 1319955

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the pictures are not visible to me, like your earlier ones were. Eager to see them though!


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Old 22 September 2022, 04:42 AM   #15
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Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the pictures are not visible to me, like your earlier ones were. Eager to see them though!
I uploaded them using Tapatalk, might be something you have to "click" on vs just showing up maybe?

Try this:





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Old 22 September 2022, 04:46 AM   #16
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Speaking of mismatched colors on the dial, here is an example of a 5512 just listed:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=873354
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Old 22 September 2022, 12:19 PM   #17
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Good add’l pics. I’m interested in others’ views; some thoughts:

1. I believe the 1560 was a chronometer grade movement (unlike the 1530 in earlier 5512s) as reflected on dial, so that’s good.

2. Any idea How much “less than 1 million, as you initially indicated, is the SN? Case back reads iii59, which most estimates would place around SN400,000. Plus 1959 is so early in the production, would it have been a 1530?

Interesting piece.


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Old 22 September 2022, 08:46 PM   #18
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Case serial number is stated to be 578,480.
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Old 22 September 2022, 10:31 PM   #19
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Not sure if I am missing something regarding the differing views on the dial originality.

Its a 5512 with red submariner text, what more is there to discuss?
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Old 22 September 2022, 10:45 PM   #20
PJDIESEL
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I'm seeing orange or "gold" (not red) looks the same or very similar to one in the classifieds I posted a link to the other day.

Looks very similar..... to me anyway.
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Old 22 September 2022, 11:48 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverD View Post
Not sure if I am missing something regarding the differing views on the dial originality.

Its a 5512 with red submariner text, what more is there to discuss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverD View Post
Not sure if I am missing something regarding the differing views on the dial originality.

Its a 5512 with red submariner text, what more is there to discuss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverD View Post
Not sure if I am missing something regarding the differing views on the dial originality.

Its a 5512 with red submariner text, what more is there to discuss?

Looks gilt-ish not reddish; also I’m unaware of a 5512 ‘red’ dial (but happy to be schooled if I’m mistaken!) and see none listed in the 17 different 5512 variations pictured in the Imai reference guide.


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Old 22 September 2022, 11:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Case serial number is stated to be 578,480.

Ah, ~1960. Syncs nicely with caseback iii59.

Eager for a movement guru to comment on the 1560 movement.


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Old 23 September 2022, 01:26 AM   #23
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Ultimately here it will come down to is it "worth" fooling with. I'm (obviously) not a watchmaker with a drawer full of vintage parts. I'm thinking along the lines of something nice to wear around, a conversation piece of sorts, a piece of history.

Figure this, not much in this world survives fully intact ~60 years later, particularly not something with some utility (back in the day).

I am determined to at least SEE it sell (this is an live auction only, no internet bidding). It's really just a matter of what it's worth (to me) at this point, if the Auction House is being truthful and it's running, I feel like it's worth a gamble.


How much ($) of a gamble?..... that I truly don't know.
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Old 23 September 2022, 02:13 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJDIESEL View Post
Ultimately here it will come down to is it "worth" fooling with. I'm (obviously) not a watchmaker with a drawer full of vintage parts. I'm thinking along the lines of something nice to wear around, a conversation piece of sorts, a piece of history.

Figure this, not much in this world survives fully intact ~60 years later, particularly not something with some utility (back in the day).

I am determined to at least SEE it sell (this is an live auction only, no internet bidding). It's really just a matter of what it's worth (to me) at this point, if the Auction House is being truthful and it's running, I feel like it's worth a gamble.


How much ($) of a gamble?..... that I truly don't know.

Good luck with it! And thanks for the interesting discussion. I’ll be interested to hear how it goes and what you decide to do.


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Old 24 September 2022, 12:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by PJDIESEL View Post
Ultimately here it will come down to is it "worth" fooling with. I'm (obviously) not a watchmaker with a drawer full of vintage parts. I'm thinking along the lines of something nice to wear around, a conversation piece of sorts, a piece of history.

Figure this, not much in this world survives fully intact ~60 years later, particularly not something with some utility (back in the day).

I am determined to at least SEE it sell (this is an live auction only, no internet bidding). It's really just a matter of what it's worth (to me) at this point, if the Auction House is being truthful and it's running, I feel like it's worth a gamble.


How much ($) of a gamble?..... that I truly don't know.

How’d it go


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Old 24 September 2022, 03:10 AM   #26
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6PM tonight....
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Old 24 September 2022, 08:54 AM   #27
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Opening bid was $7,200, sold for $10,500 plus a 15% Buyers premium.

The watch actually looked REALLY nice in person, the photos were terrible.

I didn't bid, there were two main bidders in the room, it zoomed right up to $10K quick.

$12,705 all in with State sales tax.

A learning experience if anything!
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Old 24 September 2022, 09:11 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJDIESEL View Post
Opening bid was $7,200, sold for $10,500 plus a 15% Buyers premium.

The watch actually looked REALLY nice in person, the photos were terrible.

I didn't bid, there were two main bidders in the room, it zoomed right up to $10K quick.

$12,705 all in with State sales tax.

A learning experience if anything!

Interesting! Thanks for closing the loop


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