Is there evidence Panerai was actually used by the Italian Navy?

[mobster600]

I was curious if any one owns documentation, pictures, receipts, video records of any Panerai watches used for military use? I feel there is more story telling around this topic then cold hard evidence. We have all seen the weathered dials and straps but I'm not convinced those were actually used under water. I think it's odd so few watches were produced or pictured. Usually military contracts over order by the hundreds/thousands for back ups and replacements. As well as up-scaling operations by adding more men. With so few watches actually made, I wonder if this was actually a contract or just a prototype. These might have been used as examples to sell to the military which never got funded. I know this event happens many years ago and proof is hard to come by. But just want to know a full story as I think it's a bit choppy. I'd really like to see a history book or a history expert show proof rather then watch articles/forums. Does anyone know if a museum or history archive can directly link Panerai to a wrist of a Italian military diver? I know there was secrecy around these missions but the evidence feels kinda light for a brand this recognizable. Thanks

[Saoirse32]

Excellent questions actually. As a historian, I'd be very interested to read about this myself...


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[enjoythemusic]

Didn't they use Rolex, so in a sense Rolex is actually the historic Panerai product?

[mobster600]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Didn't they use Rolex, so in a sense Rolex is actually the historic Panerai product?

Yes they were. But was Rolex contracted to provide movements? Or did Panerai just buy a bunch of Rolex watches and pop the movements into their watches? Did Rolex approve or agree to partner with Panerai to provide movements at any point in time?

[wclowe]

I’d recommend this blog:

https://perezcope.com/2021/06/05/rol...ips-hong-kong/

He covers Rolex/Panerai topics often and the linked article talks about the Italian Navy connection part way through…

Cheers!


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[mobster600]

Originally Posted by wclowe

I’d recommend this blog:

https://perezcope.com/2021/06/05/rol...ips-hong-kong/

He covers Rolex/Panerai topics often and the linked article talks about the Italian Navy connection part way through…

Cheers!


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That was a great read. Thank for the post. What an interesting past, they seem to have exclusively made watches for the military for years. Some higher ranking officials got a watch but not any any civilians. The military might have actually been the only customer for years if not decades. They probably didn't think the public would wear that type of watch. Very cool history

[TunaTuna]

I never understood why being associated with the Italian navy was a good thing. They were close allies with the nazis. Not sure i'd be proud of that

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by TunaTuna

I never understood why being associated with the Italian navy was a good thing. They were close allies with the nazis. Not sure i'd be proud of that

Interesting take no doubt but it's still history, no?


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[arcadelt]

Originally Posted by TunaTuna

I never understood why being associated with the Italian navy was a good thing. They were close allies with the nazis. Not sure i'd be proud of that

Well, if you don’t like that it will really pain you to know that Panerai equipment was used by German combat divers too.

[watchmavan]

Originally Posted by mobster600

Yes they were. But was Rolex contracted to provide movements? Or did Panerai just buy a bunch of Rolex watches and pop the movements into their watches? Did Rolex approve or agree to partner with Panerai to provide movements at any point in time?

My recent interest in Panerai unearthed...

Panerai ordered the movements and cases from Rolex. Hans found out post order being made and wasn't happy due to the axis link. They were completely Rolex made with Panerai name. It was assumed that Hans was cancelling the order but somehow the order went through.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by watchmavan

My recent interest in Panerai unearthed...

Panerai ordered the movements and cases from Rolex. Hans found out post order being made and wasn't happy due to the axis link. They were completely Rolex made with Panerai name. It was assumed that Hans was cancelling the order but somehow the order went through.

This is not quite right. G. Panerai & Figlio was a precision workshop which operated almost exclusively for the Italian Navy. They produced torpedo aiming devices, instruments and gauges but had zero expertise in manufacturing watches.








At the same time, G. Panerai & Figlio had watch shop named Orologeria Svizzera. Through this shop, Panerai had supplied the Navy for several years with marine chronometers and other timepieces.



https://perezcope.com/2018/02/22/oro...he-watch-shop/


When the Navy developed their underwater commandos and needed water resistant watches, they naturally approached Panerai. The Orologeria Svizzera was an authorized Rolex dealer but they also officially retailed Vacheron, Longines, etc. Anyway, Giuseppe Panerai browsed through the catalogues and found the Rolex Oyster Ref. 2533 in 9ct gold, which was basically a Rolex Oyster pocket watch with wire lugs to be worn as wristwatch. See top, far right.




He then ordered one for testing purposes. Rolex sent this watch to Florence on Oct. 24, 1935.




The Navy successfully tested the watch and as a result, they ordered 19 pieces in stainless steel. These were not just movements and cases but complete watches, including luminous Rolex-branded dials.




At the time, Italy was preparing for war and there was a strict autarky policy in place in order to become completely independent from the outside world. Everything had to be Italian-made. Using Rolex branded watches was therefore a problem. The Navy requested that at least some parts of the watches had to be made in Italy. This is why Panerai started making the dials for these watches.

On Sept. 8, 1943, Italy withdrew from the war after signing an armistice with the Allies. As a result, Italy was swiftly occupied by Nazi forces and tens of thousands of Italian soldiers were murdered at point blank for refusing to give up their arms. 700,000 of them were deported to Nazi slave labour camps. While most Italian underwater commandos fled to the south and aligned themselves with the Allies, some remained in occupied Italy and started training the Germans in the art of underwater warfare. This is how hundreds of so-called Panerai watches fell into German hands. In 1944, the Germans needed more watches and forced Panerai to make a new order with Rolex. Aware of the life threatening situation for Panerai, Rolex agreed to ship an already produced batch but removed all Rolex signatures (caseback, movements) to protect their reputation.









Cheers
Jose

[rajurama]

Good info here...

[quantumdna]

Amazing read and detailed info here. So Panerai’s history is basically Rolex and they later added a crown guard to it.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by quantumdna

Amazing read and detailed info here. So Panerai’s history is basically Rolex and they later added a crown guard to it.

No. That’s just Jose’s fabricated story based on a few photos to send traffic to his blog and, ultimately, his vintage watch business.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

No. That’s just Jose’s fabricated story based on a few photos to send traffic to his blog and, ultimately, his vintage watch business.

The Italian buyer of the PAM01109 Chronograph who was told by the Panerai Boutique in Milan that the P.9200 is an "in-house" movement and I had a good laugh after you suggested I had invented the story.

https://passionepaneraiwatch.forumfr...entry652021091

You keep saying that I fabricate stuff but the only one fabricating here is you. You're hilarious buddy, you truly are.

Cheers
Jose

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

The Italian buyer of the PAM01109 Chronograph who was told by the Panerai Boutique in Milan that the P.9200 is an "in-house" movement and I had a good laugh after you suggested I had invented the story.

https://passionepaneraiwatch.forumfr...entry652021091

You keep saying that I fabricate stuff but the only one fabricating here is you. You're hilarious buddy, you truly are.

Cheers
Jose

There you go again. Mentioning other people and what they supposedly said, and then passing it off as “fact”.

My brother’s hairdresser’s dog walker had this to say about Panerai….

Keep it up, please. It’s really entertaining.

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

There you go again. Mentioning other people and what they supposedly said, and then passing it off as “fact”.

My brother’s hairdresser’s dog walker had this to say about Panerai….

Keep it up, please. It’s really entertaining.

If you read Jose’s articles covering other brands’ histories I think we should conclude that whilst some of the findings are hard to accept, they are undoubtedly true. His investigation & detail is thorough. His interviews with family members and those involved with the brand for good and bad are exhaustive.
Regardless, this doesn’t mean Panerai make bad watches and he’s never said this; it means their heritage is somewhat questionable. I just hope he leaves Franck Muller alone or 2/3 of my collection will be worthless

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

If you read Jose’s articles covering other brands’ histories I think we should conclude that whilst some of the findings are hard to accept, they are undoubtedly true. His investigation & detail is thorough. His interviews with family members and those involved with the brand for good and bad are exhaustive.
Regardless, this doesn’t mean Panerai make bad watches and he’s never said this; it means their heritage is somewhat questionable. I just hope he leaves Franck Muller alone or 2/3 of my collection will be worthless

I have read many of his articles. They almost all involve unsubstantiated second-hand information he passes along as “fact”. So, no, I don’t believe what he writes. But, I tend to be extra critical of what I read on internet blogs. That’s probably a fault of mine.

I know this because I have a friend who knows a senior VP at Panerai who has well explained the truth behind a number of Jose’s photos. I’ve read the emails they’ve exchanged, and the truth makes a lot more sense than Jose’s hearsay.

(Actually, that last paragraph is a lie. But if you read Jose’s articles, they use the same style of “reporting”).

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

If you read Jose’s articles covering other brands’ histories I think we should conclude that whilst some of the findings are hard to accept, they are undoubtedly true. His investigation & detail is thorough. His interviews with family members and those involved with the brand for good and bad are exhaustive.
Regardless, this doesn’t mean Panerai make bad watches and he’s never said this; it means their heritage is somewhat questionable. I just hope he leaves Franck Muller alone or 2/3 of my collection will be worthless

It's pointless to discuss with this individual. He obviously doesn't want his worldview changed and refuses to follow the links and look at the evidence presented. In his opinion, everything is hearsay but as someone pointed out, hearsay probably doesn't mean what he thinks it means. On top of that, he likes to fabricate stories himself. Perhaps that's the reason why he's having a hard time with my work. You know what they say, the most jealous husbands are the ones that cheat on their wifes.

Cheers
Jose

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

It's pointless to discuss with this individual. He obviously doesn't want his worldview changed and refuses to follow the links and look at the evidence presented. In his opinion, everything is hearsay but as someone pointed, hearsay probably doesn't mean what he thinks it means. On top of that, he likes to fabricate stories himself. Perhaps that's the reason why he's having a hard time with my work. You know what they say, the most jealous husbands are the ones that cheat on their wifes.

Cheers
Jose

Please don’t get upset. I just think you like the attention (based upon your very own self-congratulatory posts about how many people supposedly read your blog posts) and you make up “evidence” to get that attention (based upon your overwhelming use of hearsay to substantiate your “evidence”). Have a good rest of the weekend.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Please don’t get upset. I just think you like the attention (based upon your very own self-congratulatory posts about how many people supposedly read your blog posts) and you make up “evidence” to get that attention. Have a good rest of the weekend.

No worries, I don't get upset easily. Believe whatever makes you happy and have a great weekend too

A+
Jose

[Alexxonvaldez]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

This is not quite right. G. Panerai & Figlio was a precision workshop which operated almost exclusively for the Italian Navy. They produced torpedo aiming devices, instruments and gauges but had zero expertise in manufacturing watches.

...Until they released the Egiziano (with an Angelus sourced movement) and later the Mille Metri in Aluminium but that's another story.

As one said : "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck".
A Rolex case with a Rolex hallmarked case back and a Rolex crown is a Rolex watch. The fact that the dial is provided by Singer, Beyeler, Stern, Lemrich, Metaled, Z.J., Eggli & Weiber or Panerai changes nothing.
What we have here is a Rolex military watch that equipped the Italian Navy purveyed by it's contractor Panerai.

You did a huge and impressive load of work to dig into a masterpiece of storytelling, maybe the most successful the watch industry accomplished since the resurrection of the Swiss mechanical watch in the 90s. Your blog is an absolute must read.

I do own a Panerai, a pam 183. With a "Paneraiesque" sandwich dial, a Rolex-like cushion case and onion crown, a heir to Cortebert Unitas movement. All of this seems fine to me and reflects the intentions and the pedigree of the original brand. It was not that expensive in 2010 but not yet a luxury timepiece with faux in-house movement inside !

[mg18]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

The Italian buyer of the PAM01109 Chronograph who was told by the Panerai Boutique in Milan that the P.9200 is an "in-house" movement and I had a good laugh after you suggested I had invented the story.

https://passionepaneraiwatch.forumfr...entry652021091

You keep saying that I fabricate stuff but the only one fabricating here is you. You're hilarious buddy, you truly are.

Cheers
Jose

My AD told me that my rolex was hand made and took 1 year to make and that I just bought the most precise timepiece known to man. When can I expect the exposé?

[watchmavan]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

No. That’s just Jose’s fabricated story based on a few photos to send traffic to his blog and, ultimately, his vintage watch business.

As an interested reader I'd like to see an attack of evidence that has been presented rather than an attack on the writer. All you do by attacking the person is strengthen the story!


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[rambo99]

Originally Posted by watchmavan

As an interested reader I'd like to see an attack of evidence that has been presented rather than an attack on the writer. All you do by attacking the person is strengthen the story!


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can agree no more!

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by watchmavan

As an interested reader I'd like to see an attack of evidence that has been presented rather than an attack on the writer. All you do by attacking the person is strengthen the story!


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I have to admit that at this point it just seems like the one with a personal vendetta is Cru. Just personal attacks meanwhile beyond the repetitive seemingly empty criticism I see a lot of real factual information in Jose's work.
Not sure what the big deal is about "creating traffic" to his website, that is literally a huge percentage of what so many here are doing all the time and what's wrong with it anyway, do we want him to write an article here as a thread that can get deleted vs having control of his work on his platform.

Any writer, journalist or blogger if you want to get petty would be really stupid to not have control over his work after having invested so much personal time in producing it.
Most youtube channels now are all owned by some entity made to specifically "push" traffic to a business, Hodinkee, TPG, Watch Finder, Roman, Eric, Jenni, Revolution, etc....beyond the obvious personal love for watches, do we think these people are just doing this for charity and community service.

I think pointing to other articles as proof helps verify by others doing similar research what he is saying. Finally, as a fan of the brand I'm rather surprised to see the constant negative criticism to another fan who is actually from my perspective looking out for the product, which doesn't seem to be the problem but how it's being managed from up top.

Cru, can you share with us something in this thread of your own research negating or supporting the actual question the op posted, that would be more helpful in my humble opinion as it's great topic of discussion and interest to many of us as fans. Thanks.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

Cru, can you share with us something in this thread of your own research negating or supporting the actual question the op posted, that would be more helpful in my humble opinion as it's great topic of discussion and interest to many of us as fans. Thanks.

See, for example, my post here: https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...2&postcount=21

Otherwise, it's difficult to "negate" the claims of Jose or prove otherwise, as that's what most of his "facts" are: simple claims and conjecture and hearsay (click the word for the definition ).

Just so it's clear, I have nothing against Jose or even what he suggests. And it's not a vendetta (sorry if it appears that way). I respect the amount of time and effort he puts into his posts and I'm glad for him that he gets the attention he admittedly seeks.

I just have an issue referring to his blog as "facts" or "proof" of much of anything. I think his blog is more a collection of photos with his personal explanation (fabrication?) of what the photos might possibly mean.

[karteo]

does anyone really care whether or not Panerai was actually used by Italian navy?

[GreatScott]

We could ask them, but we all know they like to fudge on the actual truth a lot.

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[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

I have to admit that at this point it just seems like the one with a personal vendetta is Cru. Just personal attacks meanwhile beyond the repetitive seemingly empty criticism I see a lot of real factual information in Jose's work.
Not sure what the big deal is about "creating traffic" to his website, that is literally a huge percentage of what so many here are doing all the time and what's wrong with it anyway, do we want him to write an article here as a thread that can get deleted vs having control of his work on his platform.

Any writer, journalist or blogger if you want to get petty would be really stupid to not have control over his work after having invested so much personal time in producing it.
Most youtube channels now are all owned by some entity made to specifically "push" traffic to a business, Hodinkee, TPG, Watch Finder, Roman, Eric, Jenni, Revolution, etc....beyond the obvious personal love for watches, do we think these people are just doing this for charity and community service.

I think pointing to other articles as proof helps verify by others doing similar research what he is saying. Finally, as a fan of the brand I'm rather surprised to see the constant negative criticism to another fan who is actually from my perspective looking out for the product, which doesn't seem to be the problem but how it's being managed from up top.

Cru, can you share with us something in this thread of your own research negating or supporting the actual question the op posted, that would be more helpful in my humble opinion as it's great topic of discussion and interest to many of us as fans. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

See, for example, my post here: https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...2&postcount=21

Otherwise, it's difficult to "negate" the claims of Jose or prove otherwise, as that's what most of his "facts" are: simple claims and conjecture and hearsay (click the word for the definition ).

Just so it's clear, I have nothing against Jose or even what he suggests. And it's not a vendetta (sorry if it appears that way). I respect the amount of time and effort he puts into his posts and I'm glad for him that he gets the attention he admittedly seeks.

I just have an issue referring to his blog as "facts" or "proof" of much of anything. I think his blog is more a collection of photos with his personal explanation (fabrication?) of what the photos might possibly mean.

Seems lately these type of Panerai threads always spiral into conspiracy theories, or outright brand bashing

Is Jose’s work factual? I have no clue really. I suppose it’s for the reader to interpret his “facts”.

I can think of a Rolex story … something to do with a guy that climbed a big hill with an Explorer, or did he, that’s been debated to death

Me personally, I get as much or enjoyment out of wearing my Panerai as any other brand.