I will never deal with George Abrahams (George Ab) again

[Zirotti]

Even though he posted a "buy with confidence from Zirotti", I would give a personal word of caution to any any fellow TRFer's that may deal with George Abrahams.

Last week, I sold him this SubC that I bought BNIB from DavidSW. My asking price was around $6900 and we agreed to $6800. When he received the watch, one of the hang tangs was missing. I checked the house and called David. Couldn't find it. George than proceeded to berate me that "I had advertised the watch as 100% complete" and that because that one hang tag was missing, that I should refund his entire purchase PLUS pay for shipping back to me. We finally came to the agreement that I would send him an additional $100 as "compensation for my error" and that at least he would be happy wearing it.

I wake up today and see the watch listed for sale one day later for $300 more than what he payed for me. Now, I know we all flip watches at one point, but after he dragged me through the mud about returning a watch because of a hang-tag, only to list it for $300 more the next day really peeved me. That is not what community is about.

While no-one was "scammed", I would just like to say of all the transactions I have had on TRF and boards, this has been the only unpleasant one. If you want an easy and smooth transaction, I don't think George will be it.

[bodybump]

Jason Which hang tag we talking about? Green or the Red? Some Ads take them and use them as their own reference for file..

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by bodybump

Jason Which hang tag we talking about? Green or the Red? Some Ads take them and use them as their own reference of for file..

The square one. Not the 'ROLEX' round one. Not sure if I am accurately describing it.

[Mudcat]

Damn, that's just wrong. So much for me PMing him for an offer on the Sub.

Thanks for the heads up

[TimeToGo]

You should not be upset over him flipping the watch for whatever price he chooses. That was a deal between you and him.

What I think does not look proper on the "new" listing is the "lip" about how he acquired the watch from a seller that "bla bla bla"...

I think the "bla bla bla" was not necessary!

[TimeToGo]

IMHO
A deal is a deal. Two parties come to an agreement on a price. The haggling part sucks, but it happens. From the looks the shipping charge both ways would have cost $100+. One party received $$$ and the other received the watch.
The discreditation is the only thing that does not look good.
I think I just spent my second cent on this thread.

[JUSTROLEXES]

Jason I've never done business with you or with George but I know that both of you are good guys. Accidents do happen here and there when dealing...and in this case both of you were able to work it out and come to a mutual solution by refunding him $100.
Now after he owns the watch he has the right to wear it, sell it, gift it, break it...It is his at this point...That is my

[Zirotti]

Agreed fellas. It's really not
About the money. But to stir up shit like he did only to flip it is what pissed me off. I've flipped watches. It's not a big deal. But the way he carried on only to dump it bothered me.

[skywag]

When I bought my SS Daytona from Ben Bridge, they INSISTED on keeping one of the hang tags. Period!

[yachtblackdog]

doesn`t look great, it`s true...but "just business, nothing personal"...

[crockey]

George Ab should be ashamed. TRF FS section is an area where gentlemen exchange watches...........not a cut throat back alley market. I think Ziroti was more than generous with the $100 refund, but then he is bashed in the FS thread 24 hours later. George Ab is entitled to a profit, but he doesn't have to step all over the previous seller to get it.

[George Ab]

A response is in order. I purchased a watch that was described as "100% complete". The post can be seen here: http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=141161
When the watch arrived the hangtag unique to each watch Rolex sells (that has the model and serial number) was missing. I purchased because it stated it was "100% complete" as I want it for my personnel collection. I requested to send it back as I desired complete set. However, that was refused. I accepted Jason's apology and the $100 compensation for the missing tag and posted positive feedback for Jason on the Who's Who seen here: http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=142208.

I posted the watch for sale. http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=142316. I stated the reason I am selling is because it was incomplete and that I would trade for a complete Sub C and provide $ to compensate or sell and I will purchase another Sub C that is complete. Additionally, I never stated who the seller was, the purpose of the post was to identify why it was being sold and get what I was initially after a complete Sub-c. The price I posted was $7,000 as usually there is room needed for negotiation. Incidentally Jason initially offered the watch at $6,975.

I invite you to take a look at the posts and make your own decision. I have always attempted to conduct myself professionally and respectfully and will continue to do so.

All the best,
George

[gimpex]

So it is true....there are TWO sides to every story.....

Saying "around USD6900" was a bit cheeky - 6975 is closer to around 7000 :)

[InVision]

Could be three sides to every story, the buyer side, the seller side, and sometimes the truth.

I have bought many new watches from DavidSW. I have always received both tags. My question is when you shot photos or David shot photos was the tag there? If so it probably slide away somehow, hence an accident. A bill for the tag sounds fair.

My 2 cents...

Mike

[gold canyon]

x2

[psv]

Zirotti, you posted a watch 100% complete for sale. If it was delivered in any other condition you simply should have taken back the watch, no questions asked -- that is what the TRF community is about. (buyer would have lost $50 shipping on his side, you would have lost $50 shipping on your side + wire transfer money, but that is the cost of doing business here).

[gimpex]

Interesting that this thread is attracting so many first time posters

[PanosI]

Originally Posted by gimpex

Interesting that this thread is attracting so many first time posters

I was thinking exactly the same........

[BarkMaster]

Originally Posted by gimpex

Interesting that this thread is attracting so many first time posters

Probably from the same IP.

[Welshwatchman]

The watch was advertised as 100% complete.

This was not the case, an indisputable fact.

The buyer should have accepted full refund plus the cost of return postage and saved us from this thread.

The original buyer didn't need to slight the original seller in the subsequent fs thread.

Whether the watch will sell for $7,000 is an open matter.

..... the newbies mentioned previously have gone since they were all Trolls as far as I am concerned.

[InVision]

Zirotti photos only show a red tag BTW. The buyer probably should have also asked the question about the green tag. David's ad says only a red tag in write-up when it was sold. Sherlock Holmes says there is a good possibility it was never there.

Ok 4 cents now...

PS - This thread had me going back and checking all my watches for the green tags...

[BarkMaster]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

..... the newbies mentioned previously have gone since they were all Trolls as far as I am concerned.

[Zirotti]

What I have learned is how to define 100% complete. When ever I buy a watch, and ask the seller if it's 100% complete, that infers to me: watch, box, papers. I never ask about things such as tags, bezel protectors, etc. because IMO they have zero impact on the value of the watch.

I have bought 6 new Rolex and only 2 I can remember came with a tag other than the Rolex one. My watches even bought from ADs never had bar-code tag. I had zero inclination that a tag completed a set and since George never once asked about said tag, I didn't think anything of it. In no way, shape or form was George promised something that didn't arrive.

At the end of the day, I though George and I had reached a gentlemen's agreement. But for him to drag me through the mud after said agreement was completely unnecessary and IMO unfair.

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by psv

Zirotti, you posted a watch 100% complete for sale. If it was delivered in any other condition you simply should have taken back the watch, no questions asked -- that is what the TRF community is about. (buyer would have lost $50 shipping on his side, you would have lost $50 shipping on your side + wire transfer money, but that is the cost of doing business here).

I would post the entire email dialog between George and I, but unfortunately they include sensitive information of both parties.

At the end of the day, every single question or item George asked for was delivered. There was not a single item that was promised that was not delivered.

[TimeToGo]

..... the newbies mentioned previously have gone since they were all Trolls as far as I am concerned.

I am glad their comments were removed!

[psv]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

At the end of the day, I though George and I had reached a gentlemen's agreement. But for him to drag me through the mud after said agreement was completely unnecessary and IMO unfair.

I don't pretend to understand everything in this affair, but I do agree that on a place like TRF where all you have is your name/brand we should really go out of our way to be understanding towards our brothers and sisters.

[onkyo]

If the buyer was not happy with the product he deserves to have the sale reversed typically within a 3 day period. That is a common courtesy among watch collectors and enthusiasts and should have been extended here. If the buyer elected to keep the watch subject to a compromise ($100 is a big compromise for very little) then he should keep his mouth shut and move on. All IMHO.

[HFLO]

I suppose once I bought the watch and paid for, I then have every right to it. But as a respect to previous owner (and to ourselves), any negative reference to the previous deal is simply not necessary, netiher should the seller sound any disappointment/disatisfication that buyer is offerring it for a 'little' (or huge) profit, what if buyer eventually make a lossing deal?

have to sound my 2 cents as I may be flipping soon

[norituck]

If it was me I would sell the watch for $6700.00 or less. He paid 6800.00 - $100.00 refund. I wouldn't feel good about making a profit off my brothers and sisters on this forum. That's just me and I'm sure many would disagree.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

The watch was advertised as 100% complete.

This was not the case, an indisputable fact.

The buyer should have accepted full refund plus the cost of return postage and saved us from this thread.

The original buyer didn't need to slight the original seller in the subsequent fs thread.

Whether the watch will sell for $7,000 is an open matter.

..... the newbies mentioned previously have gone since they were all Trolls as far as I am concerned.

Hi Paul,

I agree with you but wasn't George refused a refund/return?

I requested to send it back as I desired complete set. However, that was refused. I accepted Jason's apology and the $100 compensation for the missing tag and posted positive feedback for Jason on the Who's Who seen here.

Had the watch been accepted back for a refund the second sale and subsequent post would not have happened.