Did I get scammed?

[Watchdoyouwant?]

I'm worried I may have bought a questionable 5146p. I do not yet have it in hand and could use some advice.

I noticed that in the photos of the watch I bought, it does not appear to have lume dots above the hour markers.

HOWEVER, in many other postings for the same model, it appears there ARE lume dots. Is this a version variation (I hope) or did I get tricked into buying a fake dialed watch?

Photo with date Oct. 5 is the photo of the watch I bought. *Note no lume dots.* The other two are other 5146p watches I found online that do have lume dots.

Any expert able to chime in?

[Watchdoyouwant?]

More images from the forum...ALL have lume dots.

[77T]

There are more “tells” than the lume dots. No, don’t believe it’s authentic.


Unlikely that seller will refund.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bmats]

Never great to worry before you even get the piece. Did you get from a trusted good seller or from a service that has an escrow service? Did you wire?

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by 77T

There are more “tells” than the lume dots. No, don’t believe it’s authentic.


Unlikely that seller will refund.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Ugh. Not what I was hoping to hear.

Originally Posted by Bmats

Never great to worry before you even get the piece. Did you get from a trusted good seller or from a service that has an escrow service? Did you wire?

Wire. Feeling pretty foolish at the moment.

[77T]

The dial is something to compare.
Yours on top, PP on bottom.


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[Watchdoyouwant?]

@77T: Thank you. I see the differences.

No sense in protecting the guilty, here is the listing:

https://www.phigora.com/products/pat...46p-mens-watch

They claim to have a guarantee. We shall see how that goes.

[ExplorerI]

Phigora is a reputable company I’d be surprised if they knowingly sold a fake

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by ExplorerI

Phigora is a reputable company I’d be surprised if they knowingly sold a fake

Well, that gives me a bit of optimism that the issue will be resolved. They still have the watch in hand--it has not yet been shipped to me.

[ExplorerI]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Well, that gives me a bit of optimism that the issue will be resolved. They still have the watch in hand--it has not yet been shipped to me.

Have you tried calling them asking about these concerns?

[Horologista]

Originally Posted by 77T

There are more “tells” than the lume dots. No, don’t believe it’s authentic.


Unlikely that seller will refund.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

What are the other tells you see?
The case, pushers, and most importantly movement look legit.
The dial otherwise looks good. If fake seems like a crazy oversight on part of the manufacturers to miss such an easy to fake detail as the lume.
Not aware of any 5146P super clones out there.

Please post update when you receive the watch.
Wishing OP a good outcome.

[norcalgt3]

Phigora is extremely reputable as others have indicated.. I wouldn't worry in the least.

[bob101]

Did the early 5146p have no lume plots? See if online can find any examples.

Personally the underside of case back doesn’t look right in the photos could just be generally over polished and not well looked after. The case seems over polished and also looks a bit odd but photos on their site not great. I’d pass on it and ask for your money back and find a better example.

[norcalgt3]

and to clarify: I wouldn't worry about getting your money back. They are a brick and mortar shop with an established online presence.

[COMPLICATED PP]

The platinum version has a diamond in the case at 6 o’clock too.
Agree with others on here, this is a clone

[Andad]

I am interested to see the outcome.

[Moondoggy]

I actually do not think you have been "scammed". I would suspect it will play out okay.

[Russell996]

To answer your question, since this is a reputable store as others have attested, you clearly haven’t been scammed. They will stand behind the purchase and either authenticate it or if there is a problem they will credit you back in full.

From the photos I can’t see an issue, there isn’t a photo showing the diamond position so that is an easy check to add verification before it is shipped. The case, movement and dial seem to stand up to scrutiny to me from the fairly low res images available. As to the lume, Patek isn’t above dial printing issues and I kind of like it non lumed.

For those saying fake, I would suggest a little more elaboration would be helpful as to your reasons.

[dlmocdm]

Originally Posted by COMPLICATED PP

The platinum version has a diamond in the case at 6 o’clock too.

This cannot be properly appreciated from those pics: the caseback pic shows the top part only. Note that the 5146G-010 has numeric hour markers at 9, 12, 3, so this design corresponds to the 5146P-001.

All examples I have seen of the 5146P-001 have lumed markers. While Patek has occasionally made extremely minor updates to some references, producing an un-lumed version would be quite odd. I think there is definitely something fishy with that dial.

As an additional point of concern, the pic of the caseback appears to show some particles inside the movement, but it is possible that it is the sapphire crystal that is dirty; not sure.

[Timetaker34]

Originally Posted by dlmocdm

This cannot be properly appreciated from those pics: the caseback pic shows the top part only. Note that the 5146G-010 has numeric hour markers at 9, 12, 3, so this design corresponds to the 5146P-001.

All examples I have seen of the 5146P-001 have lumed markers. While Patek has occasionally made extremely minor updates to some references, producing an un-lumed version would be quite odd. I think there is definitely something fishy with that dial.

As an additional point of concern, the pic of the caseback appears to show some particles inside the movement, but it is possible that it is the sapphire crystal that is dirty; not sure.

To add to that, the Calatrava cross on the rotor is very weird to say the least. Usually these dirty components are in Chinese clone movements which don’t get cleaned up too good. Even though this model has not been faked, it could be a franken watch with genuine parts mixed.
It would be interesting to see the balance wheel - if it’s free sprung or not, as well as the other parts of the movement.

Those who mentioned the diamond: it’s not worth looking into it purely from pictures, since the good fakes have that too.

[dlmocdm]

Regardless of the outcome, a buyer of such an expensive watch should receive a great customer experience. The fact that OP has to go to a public forum to ask about his purchase speaks poorly of Phigora. Even if the watch is otherwise authentic, Phigora should have properly documented and disclosed any dial modification, or whatever it is that makes this dial unique.

[joa]

good catch OP -

great you picked up on this before they ship it to you.!!

hope all works out well

PS - my 5146 is a 010 variant so it's not exactly the same, but it has those solid markers as well

[Horologista]

Originally Posted by Timetaker34

To add to that, the Calatrava cross on the rotor is very weird to say the least. Usually these dirty components are in Chinese clone movements which don’t get cleaned up too good. Even though this model has not been faked, it could be a franken watch with genuine parts mixed.
It would be interesting to see the balance wheel - if it’s free sprung or not, as well as the other parts of the movement.

Those who mentioned the diamond: it’s not worth looking into it purely from pictures, since the good fakes have that too.

Calatrava cross appears ok to me. Rotor has all the striations I would expect.
Frankenwatches are more of a concern for vintage mass produced Rolex. Low production modern Patek less likely I think. Spots on the movement are interesting.

[Horologista]

Top is my 5146G
Bottom is the 5146P in question.
Movement looks 100% genuine.
Can see dust on my movement barrel wheel just below the Patek Philippe Geneva Swiss label. This was an imperceptible spec on the case back that projected onto the movement in the photo.

Only difference I see is how the striations on the rotor intersect the Calatrava cross at different points. However the machining of the striations looks right on the 5146P. This is probably just a production variation.

If I had to bet I would say the watch is ok.

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Thanks everyone. I reached out to Phigora, but they are closed until Monday.

I’m glad to hear at least some consider Phigora reputable. I chose them because they seem to have a good online presence as well as a real brick and mortar store.

To add to the mystery, Phigora has a second 5146p listing (also sold) that DOES appear to have the proper lume dots:

https://www.phigora.com/products/pat...tch-box-papers

I also reached out to Patek directly (just via the website so if someone has a better idea I’m interested) to inquire if the 5146p ever came without lume dots.

I did find a second example of the 5146p without lume dots on the Moda watch forum. I asked the seller about it and got a mealy answer about him thinking maybe the platinum dial didn’t come with lume—which even I know is not the case.

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Plot thickens: I contacted the Moda seller who is listing the same watch (without lume) on Moda. I noticed however what looked to me like identical marks on the caseback, and the dial photos show the same date (Oct 10) as the Phigora watch. So I believe this watch is the watch I bought posted both on Moda and Phigora’s site.

I contacted the Moda seller and he admitted he works for Phigora. This means the only no-lume 5146p I have been able to find is the watch in question sold by Phigora.

Update 2: I am in contact with the Phigora owner, George.He will get back to me tomorrow. I am going to be cautiously optimistic that we will get to the bottom of this.

[Calatrava r]

The strap does not fit this watch either. I would not think it was worth anybody's time to clone a 5146P. I suspect it is real. Looking back at older Pateks there were minor dial variations on the same reference over the runs. For example, putting "Swiss Made" on some dials but not others.

[w220]

It also appears if the moon phase disc is different on the two 5146P's. Your watch has the new style of disc, with a grainy textured moon phase, while the other watch has the old style highly shiny disc.

My guess is that your watch is authentic, just a newer production run with a dial variation.

[jgottsman11]

situation seems too sketchy for me to feel comfortable proceeding. i'd get out of the deal

[Moondoggy]

Call me cynical however when I hear Moda, Chrono, ePrey, greys I run and run far.

If I can’t buy it from an AD or someone I know I’m out of there.

I am sure it works out most of the time I’m just not that much of a gambler.