Match period caseback and dial

[MrChamfers]

I'm doing a 5513 build and have just started by ordering the case, does it look to have any issues?
Is there a way to identify a caseback and dial that are from the same year?
The serial number is not all visible here but I've asked for more info from the seller:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-Subma...e/154213036822

[Dan S]

Photos are not great, but the case looks basically ok to me. Just worn, and someone has tried to do some sloppy amateur restoration. It could certainly be professionally refinished, if that's what you want.

A 7.1M serial 5513 will have an un-dated caseback. You will probably want a Maxi IV or Maxi V dial.

Read this:
http://www.5513mattedial.com/MaxiDials.html

[swish77]

Description says it’s a 1.7 serial, which it’s not, so presumably a typo, but just look at early ‘80s 5513s for your answer about the dial. Plenty online. I think you’d want a maxi dial. Tall order.

Hard to tell about the authenticity of the case, but one thing I don’t like is that the area between the lugs with the serial and reference numbers looks like it might have been intentionally scratched to give an appearance of wear there. I could be wrong, but my Sherlock Holmes antenna went up.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swish77

... one thing I don’t like is that the area between the lugs with the serial and reference numbers looks like it might have been intentionally scratched to give an appearance of wear there. I could be wrong, but my Sherlock Holmes antenna went up.

That's a good observation, Aaron. Those scratches aren't quite what one would usually expect from end-link wear.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That's a good observation, Aaron. Those scratches aren't quite what one would usually expect from end-link wear.

hmm, well that wouldn't be good. Are there fakes that have perfect font match now?

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by saltpeter

hmm, well that wouldn't be good. Are there fakes that have perfect font match now?

If you can tell from those photos that the font between the lugs is perfect, then you know MUCH more than me, so I feel foolish trying to answer your questions. My apologies.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by Dan S

If you can tell from those photos that the font between the lugs is perfect, then you know MUCH more than me, so I feel foolish trying to answer your questions. My apologies.

oh boy...lol
Thanks for the help. Usually fake dials have easily identifiable script errors. I thought the same might be true for case markings.

[Goochy]

Originally Posted by saltpeter

I'm doing a 5513 build and have just started by ordering the case, does it look to have any issues?
Is there a way to identify a caseback and dial that are from the same year?
The serial number is not all visible here but I've asked for more info from the seller:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-Subma...e/154213036822

Now showing as sold.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by Goochy

Now showing as sold.

To me, and I'm dealing with the seller rn.
But the script was putting me off now, it says registered design whereas the other 5513 7 mil I see say orig rolex design
Looking on the forum I found an explanation. "sometime around 1980, the patent expired on the original Oyster case design. as a result, Rolex had to change the wording. watches manufactured prior to 1980 will have the 'registered design' notation while those produced after 1982 will have the 'original design' designation."

on the plus side of the ledger, "the "E"s in stainless steel and registered design between the lugs. On an Authentic case... the middle bar of the E will always be shorter than the upper and lower. On most fake cases....the middle bar will be the same length as the upper and lower."

[MrChamfers]

That dial is gonna be hard to find, what are the chances of putting together the parts I can (case, movement, crown, crystal) \and then sending to Rolex for final assembly/service including a service dial and hands?

I'm thinking slim to none...

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by saltpeter

That dial is gonna be hard to find, what are the chances of putting together the parts I can (case, movement, crown, crystal) \and then sending to Rolex for final assembly/service including a service dial and hands?

I'm thinking slim to none...

Don't forget the bezel and insert, and bracelet ... that's another $4k-$5k. Case-back probably close to $1k. Dial / hands + movement, I don't know, $5k-$6k? Crystal, crown and other miscellaneous parts, plus watchmaker costs to service and assemble, maybe another $1k-$2k? You already have $2k into the mid-case. What's that $13k-$16k? And that's for parts that are probably just about average ... to build a frankenwatch. And that's assuming that you don't make any mistakes, and you already see that buying parts can be a mine-field.

Here is exactly the Maxi 5 watch you are trying to build, already built and serviced from a dealer. A nice one: https://tropicalwatch.com/watches/ykkp

If you're not too picky, you can get a half-decent matte-dial 5513 for about $11k from a private seller and $13k from dealers. Right now, no patience or effort required. No risk taken. If you were already sitting on half of the parts, this might make sense. But starting from scratch ... I don't see the upside.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=766886
https://tropicalwatch.com/watches/4t6l

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Don't forget the bezel and insert, and bracelet ... that's another $5k.

Hopefully you realize that this is going to cost you way more than just buying a 5513. Especially if you're not too picky (and patient), you can get a half-decent matte-dial 5513 for about $11k.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=766886

The 5513 for sale in your link is drool worthy.

well, dammit, if I can't do it for around 7k-8k (no bracelet) then it wont be worth it.
my estimates were undoable for a 1675, but for a 5513 I was thinking, for parts with a fair amount of wear:

Case 2000
Dial, non-maxi, 1000
Bezel 1500
Insert 1000
Hands 200
Caseback 1000
Movement 1000

total = 7700
plus service......hmm

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by saltpeter

The 5513 for sale in your link is drool worthy.

well, dammit, if I can't do it for around 7k-8k (no bracelet) then it wont be worth it.
my estimates were undoable for a 1675, but for a 5513 I was thinking, for parts with a fair amount of wear:

Case 2000
Dial, non-maxi, 1000
Bezel 1500
Insert 1000
Hands 200
Caseback 1000
Movement 1000

total = 7700
plus service......hmm

I edited my previous post after you quote it, to add a few more price estimates and links.

If you think can get decent parts for those prices, then ok. And maybe you have done your research. But I tend to think you're too light on the prices for dial and movement. My guess is that you will need to pay at least $2k for a ticking movement (which may need repairs), and a bare minimum of $2k for a crappy matte dial, but probably closer to $3k if you want something attractive.

I'd still be really surprised if you end up putting anything decent together for less than $11k without a bracelet, including watchmaker costs, or $12k-13k with bracelet. And I'm not expecting it's going to be a top-notch example.

Even at your prices (which I think are too low), if you include the crystal, crown, and watchmaker costs, you are close to $9k, without a bracelet. And that's with absolutely no margin for error. And you will need a bracelet, which is going to cost you at least $1,500.

I haven't done extensive research on current pricing, so I could be wrong, but make sure you're really confident in your research before you get in too deep. Use realistic prices, not the cheapest outlier prices you've ever seen.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I edited my post to add a few more price estimates and links.

If you think can get decent parts for those prices, then ok. And maybe you have done your research. But I tend to think you're too light on the prices for dial and movement. My guess is that you will need to pay at least $2k for a ticking movement (which may need repairs), and a bare minimum of $2k for a crappy matte dial, but probably closer to $3k for the dial. $1k is probably too little for an insert, but the bezel will probably be less than $1.5k, so you're not too far off on that combination IMO.

I'd still be really surprised if you end up putting anything decent together for less than $11k without a bracelet, including watchmaker costs, or $12k-13k with bracelet. And I'm not expecting it's going to be a top-notch example.

Even at your prices (which I think are too low), if you include the crystal, crown, and watchmaker costs, you are close to $9k, without a bracelet. And that's with absolutely no margin for error. And you will need a bracelet, which is going to cost you at least $1,500.

I haven't done extensive research on current pricing, so I could be wrong, but make sure you're really confident in your research before you get in too deep. Use realistic prices, not the cheapest outlier prices you've ever seen.

thanks, I will do more research.
The 1530 price is key here, either on its own or from an air king - prices are lower lately.
That and the dial if I can get lucky will make or break it...something like this. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rol...-/274427090981
If it goes south I can always sell the parts and lick my wounds while wearing my GMT.

[Dan S]

That white-gold-surround dial would not be correct for your watch. You need a matte dial for this to make any sense. If you are considering a 5513 with white gold surround dial, then prices are in the $8k-$9k range for a nice one with bracelet. Just buy one.

[Filipão]

OP you have no idea what awaits you.

Buy a decent one and enjoy it from day one.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That white-gold-surround dial would not be correct for your watch. You need a matte dial for this to make any sense. If you are considering a 5513 with white gold surround dial, then prices are in the $8k-$9k range for a nice one with bracelet. Just buy one.

Oh right. Much to consider...

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Filipão

OP you have no idea what awaits you.

Buy a decent one and enjoy it from day one.

This is so true. I honor the drive and dedication to the mission, but based on your questions this ain’t gonna go good. just buy a great one. And if you’re looking for a horological experience at watchmaking, buy a kit or an old pocket watch to take apart and rebuild.

[swish77]

Great breakdown of the price/parts above. You also need to consider the massive amount of time required to do all of this, along with the headaches.

Also, from a collector standpoint and separate from whether it’s financially prudent ... I would consider this a type of “Frankenwatch,” even if every part was authentic and age-correct. I guess it wouldn’t matter if you don’t ever plan to sell the watch, but even so, not sure I’d enjoy wearing a put-together piece like this. I like to know that a vintage watch came from the factory as is, all those decades ago.

It just ain’t worth it, IMHO.

[MrChamfers]

I'm thinking of it more like a vintage car situation I've dealt with. I've started with a good frame and now havea mostly stock Bronco which is now worth in the mid-range and good to drive and has resale value.
For 30,000 more I could buy a mint condition untouched Bronco but that wasn't my budget.

I would never spend $15,000 for a 5513 I would much rather have a franken one built with all correct parts for $8,000 and not sell it.

[wsfarrell]

I can't speak to OP's motivations, but I think that a lot of the satisfaction in this hobby comes from the chase, not the acquisition. It's fine to plop down $15k-$16k for a nice 5513, but it's also rewarding to spend some time gathering parts and putting something together.

I'm building an Omega Seamaster "Watchco" at the moment, and have everything but the movement. I search eBay for cheap Omega's with 552 movements that look good and are running. No rush. I also have a new old stock 5512 "tritinova" service dial and hands--the dial says T--SWISS--T but the lume is luminova. I really love the look of these dials. Someday I'll find a decent 5512 for sale with a shagged-out dial and put together a beauty. Not for selling, just for me.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by wsfarrell

I can't speak to OP's motivations, but I think that a lot of the satisfaction in this hobby comes from the chase, not the acquisition. It's fine to plop down $15k-$16k for a nice 5513, but it's also rewarding to spend some time gathering parts and putting something together.

I'm building an Omega Seamaster "Watchco" at the moment, and have everything but the movement. I search eBay for cheap Omega's with 552 movements that look good and are running. No rush. I also have a new old stock 5512 "tritinova" service dial and hands--the dial says T--SWISS--T but the lume is luminova. I really love the look of these dials. Someday I'll find a decent 5512 for sale with a shagged-out dial and put together a beauty. Not for selling, just for me.

Cool, those are great watches - I used to have an older 300, now I bet they go for crazy money.
Did you plan to do all the work yourself, with the various required watchmaking tools?
I better add those to the budget.

[wsfarrell]

Originally Posted by saltpeter

Cool, those are great watches - I used to have an older 300, now I bet they go for crazy money.
Did you plan to do all the work yourself, with the various required watchmaking tools?
I better add those to the budget.

Yes, I'm doing the work myself. I can replace a bezel, crystal, dial and hands, but anything involving the movement goes to the watchmaker. That's why I'm looking for a running 552 movement.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by saltpeter

I would never spend $15,000 for a 5513 I would much rather have a franken one built with all correct parts for $8,000 and not sell it.

Great. That's what makes this hobby so wonderful. We all have a different needs/wants from the wacky world of vintage watches.

But you will be hard-pressed to put together a nice 5513 with all period-correct parts (in good condition) for $8000, and it will never be the same as a true vintage Submariner, which is OK, of course, as long as that's what you're after.

I hope you're able to do it. I'd be interested to see the finished product. Good luck!

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swish77

I hope you're able to do it. I'd be interested to see the finished product. Good luck!

Yeah, I'm curious too, and I'd be interested to hear updates as the project progresses. My gut feeling is that most likely way to hit his budget would be for the OP to find some parts as part of a package deal (e.g. non-working watch, or watch with trashed dial). Maybe at a flea market or garage sale. If he has to buy each part individually off of eBay, it will be hard, because he will be competing with lots of people looking to finish off or upgrade their own watches with one correct part.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Yeah, I'm curious too, and I'd be interested to hear updates as the project progresses. My gut feeling is that most likely way to hit his budget would be for the OP to find some parts as part of a package deal (e.g. non-working watch, or watch with trashed dial). Maybe at a flea market or garage sale. If he has to buy each part individually off of eBay, it will be hard, because he will be competing with lots of people looking to finish off or upgrade their own watches with one correct part.

I think you may be right. I'm not too concerned about the movement, those are pretty common. The dial is going to be a challenge though.

Might have to go with a *shudder* refinished dial until I can find the right one.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by wsfarrell

I can't speak to OP's motivations, but I think that a lot of the satisfaction in this hobby comes from the chase, not the acquisition. It's fine to plop down $15k-$16k for a nice 5513, but it's also rewarding to spend some time gathering parts and putting something together.

I'm building an Omega Seamaster "Watchco" at the moment, and have everything but the movement. I search eBay for cheap Omega's with 552 movements that look good and are running. No rush. I also have a new old stock 5512 "tritinova" service dial and hands--the dial says T--SWISS--T but the lume is luminova. I really love the look of these dials. Someday I'll find a decent 5512 for sale with a shagged-out dial and put together a beauty. Not for selling, just for me.

I agree with this. And it’s the best way to learn.

I will recommend spending extra to find a dial with its matching handset.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrChamfers]

I will post progress pics once I get started on the build. It looks like 1982 might be a year where 5513 had both matte and glossy dials. I'd prefer the matte though.

This dial looks vaguely ok, I wouldn't settle for it just based on the odd lume job.
Are there other signs that it has been redone further?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-Dial-...3/293841203766

[MrChamfers]

Looking at the photos of that dial zoomed in I can see the font of Submariner and ft looks bad as well. Must be a redial.