What would you do to revive Panerai?

[ct79]

I also think, Panerai has done a lot more right than wrong. If you look at all watch brands, then only a very small hand full of them can charge msrp for their products, no matter what the sales channel is, official or grey. So this can be a bench mark to reach, a very lofty one in my opinion, or simply one of many goals to strive for.
What I miss at Panerai is, however, some sensible evolution. Rolex had lugholes, now they don't. Lugholes look cheap, destroy a case line design, they become filthy and also wear out. Blancpain for example uses lugholes in some models, but then relies on nicely built screws. This, in turn, speaks to me, even though I normally like closed lug holes.
Obviously increased water resistance or screwed down case backs instead of press fitted ones should be standard features.

Even more specifically:

My dream Panerai would be a Radiomir with:

- wirelugs
- between 42 and 45mm in width
- less than 14mm in thickness
- simple 12, 3, 6, 9 sandwich dial with plain Panerai and Radiomir writing, indices can be in white or in aged lume style
- dial color options: matte black or the current olive green
- keep inhouse automatic or manually wound movements, the latter with power reserve indicator on the back
- always use open caseback
- no "OP" symbols on the dial
- in brushed steel or even better titanium
- offer it by default with two straps, one leather, one no nonsene rubber with no ornaments

I am still hoping...

[GoingPlaces]

All very good points, seems like Panerai offers a little bit of something for just about everyone.

I do think they can do a better job of informing and educating people on their heritage and history, which is quite unique. There is a lot of value there and not sure they are capitalizing on this. The history of the brand as it pertains to the Italian Navy is far richer and should be more powerful than the celebrity aspect of this brand.

[willywatch]

Panerai are fighting now to survive,because of the trend for buying smaller watches.
But this will change at some point,and prices will rise again.They have a unique design
that is all their own in the watch world.I can see them increase a lot in value for the future,especially models with the Unitas calibers.Just imagine how rare these watches
will be in say the next 15-20 years.

[lhendrickson]

Originally Posted by willywatch

Panerai are fighting now to survive,because of the trend for buying smaller watches.
But this will change at some point,and prices will rise again.They have a unique design
that is all their own in the watch world.I can see them increase a lot in value for the future,especially models with the Unitas calibers.Just imagine how rare these watches
will be in say the next 15-20 years.

I started with a 43mm watch years ago and have been wearing smaller vintage for the last 5 years. I'm about to pull the trigger on a 112 as I miss having a bigger watch and am even tempted by some of the 47mm offerings. I'm sure the SS sports watch thing will blow over as will the obsession with dainty timepieces. Stoked to see Panerai rise again!

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by willywatch

Panerai are fighting now to survive,because of the trend for buying smaller watches.
But this will change at some point,and prices will rise again.They have a unique design
that is all their own in the watch world.I can see them increase a lot in value for the future,especially models with the Unitas calibers.Just imagine how rare these watches
will be in say the next 15-20 years.

How do you know they’re fighting for their life? They’re making and selling watches for the masses, not a few hundred WIS.

[yachty 1]

Originally Posted by willywatch

Panerai are fighting now to survive,because of the trend for buying smaller watches.
But this will change at some point,and prices will rise again.They have a unique design
that is all their own in the watch world.I can see them increase a lot in value for the future,especially models with the Unitas calibers.Just imagine how rare these watches
will be in say the next 15-20 years.

No disrespect Panerai showed strong sales last year. As far as watch sizes I have been hearing this ever since I started this forum. The fact you are on the Panerai forum means its relevant and sparks your interest.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by willywatch

Panerai are fighting now to survive, because of the trend for buying smaller watches.

ROFLOL!!!

Obviously, Willy is a funny guy and wrong, yet why let facts get in the way of things?

Panerai is doing great! Sales are up i believe, customer service is FAR BETTER than Patek, and at least equal to perhaps better than Rolex too. Thx for the laugh Willy, you made my bleak morning that much more enjoyable with your humor

[Fleetlord]

If you wanted to make Panerai a "hype" brand again, then this I what I think should be done.

1) Stop or drastically limit production..that's right...go as far as stopping production. This is what Ray-Ban did for one year when Luxottica acquired them to clean things up.
They would have to make the market miss them. Create a longing. A void to be filled.

2) Cut Doors. Too many customerless boutiques and dealer displays with dusty Panerai's in them. Every single time I go to a Panerai boutique, I am the only customer. I have personally seen DUST on Panerai's in a major AD display. The watches have sat untouched for so long they have DUST on them. Awful... AP, ROLEX, PATEK do this religiously and seem to be accelerating their culling of dealers as their demand INCREASES. The usual thought is "we are popular, let's give them MORE"....well that doesn't work with luxury goods.

3) Reset the product line. There are too many models and too many built of each model. Most of the new smaller models reek of "me too" appeasement. Panerai was never about appeasing the masses. It was about individualism and expression of that individualism.

4) Pricing. High Retail combined with low value retention is NOT what the luxury market craves. I fully understand how angry that makes the WIS community, but it's VERY important to the general public buyer (and I have seen so on TRF via poll numbers).
Call a dealer about selling or trading a Pam. It's usually a HARD PASS, except for the most desirable models. Those are bad vital signs for the health of the brand, whether the WIS likes it or not. Panerai needs to get the pricing in line. It's too high.

5) Re release the pared down offerings with better pricing and less doors. The market will go crazy and hype will be back again! That's if you want that..

[djyolky]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

If you wanted to make Panerai a "hype" brand again, then this I what I think should be done.

1) Stop or drastically limit production..that's right...go as far as stopping production. This is what Ray-Ban did for one year when Luxottica acquired them to clean things up.
They would have to make the market miss them. Create a longing. A void to be filled.

2) Cut Doors. Too many customerless boutiques and dealer displays with dusty Panerai's in them. Every single time I go to a Panerai boutique, I am the only customer. I have personally seen DUST on Panerai's in a major AD display. The watches have sat untouched for so long they have DUST on them. Awful... AP, ROLEX, PATEK do this religiously and seem to be accelerating their culling of dealers as their demand INCREASES. The usual thought is "we are popular, let's give them MORE"....well that doesn't work with luxury goods.

3) Reset the product line. There are too many models and too many built of each model. Most of the new smaller models reek of "me too" appeasement. Panerai was never about appeasing the masses. It was about individualism and expression of that individualism.

4) Pricing. High Retail combined with low value retention is NOT what the luxury market craves. I fully understand how angry that makes the WIS community, but it's VERY important to the general public buyer (and I have seen so on TRF via poll numbers).
Call a dealer about selling or trading a Pam. It's usually a HARD PASS, except for the most desirable models. Those are bad vital signs for the health of the brand, whether the WIS likes it or not. Panerai needs to get the pricing in line. It's too high.

5) Re release the pared down offerings with better pricing and less doors. The market will go crazy and hype will be back again! That's if you want that..

Disagree on point 5, you never decrease your price if you're a luxury brand.

I agree with your other points though. Nice post!

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[willywatch]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

ROFLOL!!!

Obviously, Willy is a funny guy and wrong, yet why let facts get in the way of things?

Panerai is doing great! Sales are up i believe, customer service is FAR BETTER than Patek, and at least equal to perhaps better than Rolex too. Thx for the laugh Willy, you made my bleak morning that much more enjoyable with your humor

Used, Panerai prices have taken a big hit over here.So i am not joking.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by willywatch

Used, Panerai prices have taken a big hit over here. So i am not joking.

Hmmm, so for you is it all about the price? We know Panerai is of excellent quality, nice in-house movements, and even an old stodgy guy like me feels they provide great customer service, etc. So all that be damned, you just consider resale price?

i do know a few guys who couldn't give a ___ about whatever timepiece it is per se, as long as it can be shown off to his buddies to brag and of course higher resale price?

Is that you?

[emtee]

Originally Posted by willywatch

Used, Panerai prices have taken a big hit over here.So i am not joking.

I can only speak for the UK but used Panerai prices are still pretty strong. Of course when compared to Rolex they are not good but what is? compared to their peers (IWC, JLC) they’re doing well. I mean there aren’t many products where you expect to be able to sell them without taking a loss, most times it’s just considered standard depreciation. It’s a shame that for a lot of people it seems their primary reason for buying a watch is how much it will hold its value. Don’t get me wrong of course it’s a legitimate concern but if you’re buying a luxury item the primary concern should be does it put a big smile on your face?

On the plus side it’s lovely to be able to walk into a boutique, see the watches and try them on without being looked down upon like a desperate bum.

Plus the fact they are available grey/Pre owned at a decent discount is the cherry on the cake. I for one don’t want Panerai to be hyped like Rolex because I genuinely love the watches and don’t want any bullish*t getting in the way of my enjoyment.

[willywatch]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Hmmm, so for you is it all about the price? We know Panerai is of excellent quality, nice in-house movements, and even an old stodgy guy like me feels they provide great customer service, etc. So all that be damned, you just consider resale price?

i do know a few guys who couldn't give a ___ about whatever timepiece it is per se, as long as it can be shown off to his buddies to brag and of course higher resale price?

Is that you?

I own Panerai and Rolex.I have owned many watches during my fifty
years of interest in watches.And i know many grey dealers.
Used Panerai prices have gone down since the trend for smaller
watches started.I admit it is not a drastic fall.But they are not easy to sell
right now.And i would mention,that i am 73 years of age and i do not
brag about anything.Or would you and others on this site deny the trend
for smaller watches in the market right now?

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by willywatch

I own Panerai and Rolex.I have owned many watches during my fifty
years of interest in watches.And i know many grey dealers.
Used Panerai prices have gone down since the trend for smaller
watches started.I admit it is not a drastic fall.But they are not easy to sell
right now.And i would mention,that i am 73 years of age and i do not
brag about anything.Or would you and others on this site deny the trend
for smaller watches in the market right now?

Thanks and very much appreciate your many years of enjoying timepieces. Have never sold a PAM, yet I know at least three people I could very easily 'flip' one to with just a single email.

I don't see a trend to smaller than 40mm for men, and as you know Rolex just made their 2020 Sub 1mm larger to 41mm. The new Rolex OP is... and have not heard MB&F, IWC, OMEGA, or others doing any majority change below 40mm, other than women's timepieces, which seem to now be ~36mm instead of much smaller ~32mm or below from days gone by.

I fully respect your years of experience, yet I don't have any problem selling timepieces, nor do I see a move to smaller than 40mm ones.

On another note, it does seem green colors are starting to take a more prominent placement. Maybe the industry is now seeking to migrate from blue to green. The clothing fashion industry loves choosing different color schemes to ensure you buy new items to stay fashionable. jmho

[willywatch]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Thanks and very much appreciate your many years of enjoying timepieces. Have never sold a PAM, yet I know at least three people I could very easily 'flip' one to with just a single email.

I don't see a trend to smaller than 40mm for men, and as you know Rolex just made their 2020 Sub 1mm larger to 41mm. The new Rolex OP is... and have not heard MB&F, IWC, OMEGA, or others doing any majority change below 40mm, other than women's timepieces, which seem to now be ~36mm instead of much smaller ~32mm or below from days gone by.

I fully respect your years of experience, yet I don't have any problem selling timepieces, nor do I see a move to smaller than 40mm ones.

On another note, it does seem green colors are starting to take a more prominent placement. Maybe the industry is now seeking to migrate from blue to green. The clothing fashion industry loves choosing different color schemes to ensure you buy new items to stay fashionable. jmho

Maybe its just a European trend,many of my friends who are dealers tell me
its a good time to buy a Pam right now.Fashions come and go,but Panerai
do have a unique design i have always liked . i just got a 118 and i love
it

[Cassidy776]

Panerai needs to greatly reduce the amount of different models they make........so many of their watches simply look the same. For the non-enthusiast, they just don't get it and even a Paneristi gets worn out with all these different versions of the same watch available at the same time. I know they burned me out years ago and I love their watches.

[yachty 1]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Thanks and very much appreciate your many years of enjoying timepieces. Have never sold a PAM, yet I know at least three people I could very easily 'flip' one to with just a single email.

I don't see a trend to smaller than 40mm for men, and as you know Rolex just made their 2020 Sub 1mm larger to 41mm. The new Rolex OP is... and have not heard MB&F, IWC, OMEGA, or others doing any majority change below 40mm, other than women's timepieces, which seem to now be ~36mm instead of much smaller ~32mm or below from days gone by.

I fully respect your years of experience, yet I don't have any problem selling timepieces, nor do I see a move to smaller than 40mm ones.

On another note, it does seem green colors are starting to take a more prominent placement. Maybe the industry is now seeking to migrate from blue to green. The clothing fashion industry loves choosing different color schemes to ensure you buy new items to stay fashionable. jmho

I agree with you 100 percent, as I said before people have been talking about smaller watches for over 10 years . Why would AP make a 44 mm roo or have a 41 ro that wears alot bigger and is sold out. Don't get me wrong maybe the 48mm are a thing of the past but bigger watches are here to stay.

[Gunna]

A PAM stands out, it’s a great piece. However, it’s not been served well by having too many models and “limited” releases. When one can buy a new piece for nearly 30% off list, it points to either excess inventory or unplanned/wishful thinking based releases.

I think if they curated their catalog, trimmed it, they will do better. Still, it’s a must have piece to have in the collection of most watch collectors that I know.

Of course the super fakes don’t help the secondary market for them.


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[japenney]

Originally Posted by woowoo

Happy Thanksgiving to those celebrating.

Disclaimer: you might be saying to yourself that you are happy with the current state of the brand, you don't care about any of the above, in fact you may be glad Panerai doesn't have the hype of other luxury brands like Rolex or AP and you prefer there not being hard to get new Panerai models you want to be seen in that everyone wants. Great!!! This thread is not for you.

Even tho you say this thread is not for me. I just wanted to state that I am in fact very happy with the current state of Panerai. I used to really enjoy Rolex as a brand and had several Rolex watches in the collection. Now because of the demand and associated frustration I have zero Rolex watches in the collection. I turned to Panerai and have been really enjoying them. They are a really sturdy watch that have a great feeling of quality for the money - much like I enjoyed about Rolex. It would really be a sad day if the prices on Panerai became inflated or they substantially increased the MSRP (much like Omega has been doing) because I want to keep enjoying this brand and its watches and right now they present a good value to quality ratio. Especially with an 8 year warranty.

[stormshadow]

Owned a few PAMs in my journey (55, 346, 292).

I like the older models. Say, PAMs that are reference 500 and below. I would take a hard look at those and put those up again the trends today and see how to bring some of those back.

I also think the Due was a decent move, except for the snap back case. A slimmer watch is certainly one of the trends that’s selling right now. Rolex has no problem in this dept. always on the slimmer side, given the movements and complications. That’s what draws me to them.

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by japenney

Even tho you say this thread is not for me. I just wanted to state that I am in fact very happy with the current state of Panerai. I used to really enjoy Rolex as a brand and had several Rolex watches in the collection. Now because of the demand and associated frustration I have zero Rolex watches in the collection. I turned to Panerai and have been really enjoying them. They are a really sturdy watch that have a great feeling of quality for the money - much like I enjoyed about Rolex. It would really be a sad day if the prices on Panerai became inflated or they substantially increased the MSRP (much like Omega has been doing) because I want to keep enjoying this brand and its watches and right now they present a good value to quality ratio. Especially with an 8 year warranty.

Perfectly stated.

[Andad]

Choose one model number?

And stick with it.

231.

[dhermidar]

I will love a 372 look alike or fiddy case, in 44mm and thinner, im still waiting for it.. years waiting in fact.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Andad

Choose one model number?

And stick with it.

231.

That’s such a beauty

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by HL65

The only reason I still wear Panerai 17 years later is because of their watches that have lots of DNA. They have been making 47mm dive watches for over 80 years. If I want to wear a smaller watch I wear a Rolex. Classic and timeless for Panerai equals big, chunky 47mm watches just like classic and timeless for Rolex are 40/36mm watches.

PS I think they are doing just fine as well!

This is worth reposting IMHO ...

Couldn’t agree more with Ken in this line of thinking

[GB-man]

Honestly hype seems to flow top down these days. If that’s what they want to do as ceo I would

1) pay celebrities to wear them in major films/tv series

2) start buying rare panerai back at auction

3)offer endorsement deals to rappers and pop stars.

In this environment I think Pam being not too hot makes it an oasis of sorts for actual watch geeks.

[Goin2drt]

Keep it as is. It is nice to have a nice brand that you can go get anything your heart desires. There is nothing good, exciting, fun about the BS with Rolex SS purchasing.

[Ravager135]

I have no idea how Panerai is doing financially (I am sure they are fine). I also recognize that the majority of individuals who buy a Panerai are not necessarily fanatical about the brand. Most of my advice comes from the perspective of someone who does appreciate the brand as an ethusiast, has owned around ten different Panerai watches at some time, and does feel that the brand is doing many things "right."

I think we would all be in complete denial if we did not acknowledge that Panerai has taken significant criticism of their entry level offerings. The snap-on casebacks is probably the largest offense here, but we have also had issues with entry level 8 Day movements, spring bars instead of lugs, rising price points. There is no reason Panerai could not offer a base model with a reliable inhouse movement, screw down caseback, sandwich dial, and lack of superfluous text on the dial for around $5-6k.

This is actually what most hardcore fans want: an updated PAM111 or 112 with a new movement. The same for the Radiomir line: an updated PAM210 or 183. Among those, provide offerings in ceramic or DLC at a slightly higher cost and they would rapidly become the hottest selling models for the brand. In the Luminor 1950 and Radiomir 1940, I don't see a problem with their automatic movements in the 44mm cases. It would be nice to have a base Radiomir 1940 that is 47mm, manual wind, and without a date. I understand that there are similar models to what I am describing, but they typically have green or blue dials, superfluous text, or are LE/SE.

Panerai can still continue to innovate with new case materials at higher price points. Let's just get a coherent entry level line of Luminors and Radiomirs that have a higher level of quality than what we are currently seeing.

[lhendrickson]

Originally Posted by Ravager135

Panerai can still continue to innovate with new case materials at higher price points. Let's just get a coherent entry level line of Luminors and Radiomirs that have a higher level of quality than what we are currently seeing.

Great insight here. I myself am currently on the hunt for a 112 as I want total simplicity without anything superfluous and find the entry-level offerings a bit lacking. As for the rest? I really like what the Submersible line is and what it represents and even understand (and like) the Due line. I wouldn't buy it, but it's rad that there's a slimmer OP out there for people who aren't too concerned with having a historical OP (47mm) or one that will be used in the water or while being active.

Originally Posted by GB-man

In this environment I think Pam being not too hot makes it an oasis of sorts for actual watch geeks.

Dude. You took the words right out of my mouth. My last purchase was a vintage Rolex and I happen to be returning to the vintage market after about five years away. It's AWFUL and I feel much the same about current production Rolexes and availability constraints. Rolex is GREAT however I'm not interested in the packs people are putting on them or the bullshit that comes along with it. Thus, I find myself interested in a 112 for now with something from the current lineup to follow. Not only will the quality be there, but I'll also be able to actually buy what I want!

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Ravager135

I have no idea how Panerai is doing financially (I am sure they are fine). I also recognize that the majority of individuals who buy a Panerai are not necessarily fanatical about the brand. Most of my advice comes from the perspective of someone who does appreciate the brand as an ethusiast, has owned around ten different Panerai watches at some time, and does feel that the brand is doing many things "right."

I think we would all be in complete denial if we did not acknowledge that Panerai has taken significant criticism of their entry level offerings. The snap-on casebacks is probably the largest offense here, but we have also had issues with entry level 8 Day movements, spring bars instead of lugs, rising price points. There is no reason Panerai could not offer a base model with a reliable inhouse movement, screw down caseback, sandwich dial, and lack of superfluous text on the dial for around $5-6k.

This is actually what most hardcore fans want: an updated PAM111 or 112 with a new movement. The same for the Radiomir line: an updated PAM210 or 183. Among those, provide offerings in ceramic or DLC at a slightly higher cost and they would rapidly become the hottest selling models for the brand. In the Luminor 1950 and Radiomir 1940, I don't see a problem with their automatic movements in the 44mm cases. It would be nice to have a base Radiomir 1940 that is 47mm, manual wind, and without a date. I understand that there are similar models to what I am describing, but they typically have green or blue dials, superfluous text, or are LE/SE.

Panerai can still continue to innovate with new case materials at higher price points. Let's just get a coherent entry level line of Luminors and Radiomirs that have a higher level of quality than what we are currently seeing.

Great post