Post-Repair Shock and Cautionary Tale

[Kingface66]

I'll try to be concise, and additionally, keep this honest and without judgment.

About a year ago I sent my 1966 5513 gilt Sub to LA WatchWorks to have the crown repaired, and ultimately replaced. It only took a few weeks and communication with the shop, especially Edvi, was fantastic.

The watch came back, it worked beautifully and I didn't even notice the new crown, except for how much better it worked! I put the watch away and wore my other watches in the collection for the most part, taking the 5513 out now and again for special occasions only.

And then I noticed the dial.
And the small bumps on it that weren't there before I sent it off.

I was embarrassed over not noticing it sooner, and just ashamed that I let this go unattended. Also realizing that it was probably a result of the watch being opened up for the first time in a long time and whatever change in atmosphere probably reacted strangely with the lacquer on the dial, I recognized that it was just a matter of time before this might happen (if my assertion is correct about the exposure to the air).

Now I just feel depressed, stupid, and annoyed. Over a year has gone by since they worked on it, and I'm trying to resign myself that this was just an unfortunate circumstance of maintaining a 50+ year-old watch. And, really upset that I didn't address this sooner.

I'm not sure what, if anything, I'm asking here. But, as a member of this community, I wanted to share this tale. As upsetting as it is. Maybe I just seek some consoling or...any other words of wisdom.

The following are before and after service pics.

The watch, face forward, looking good:

[IMG][/IMG]

Angle showing gloss pre-service:
[IMG][/IMG]

And again:
[IMG][/IMG]

Post-Service:
[IMG][/IMG]

And again:
[IMG][/IMG]

[037]

Hard to say what happened to cause the dial to bubble. Natural degradation, sitting in storage without light exposure, the dial (possibly) being cleaned with a chemical that reacted, exposure to new air, etc.

This is one downside to vintage and rare dials. I'm in a similar boat with mine and it's always a concern with service.

If you decide to reach out to LAWW and inquire, definitely let us know what they say. I'd be curious as to their thoughts on what happened.

[exador]

Part and parcel of owning a watch that old. Hodinkee wrote an interesting article about aged dials being “ticking time bombs”:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ag...king-time-bomb

Good news is, some collectors will inexplicably pay extra for damaged dials

[harry in montreal]

Could the dial issue develop because the old crown allowed humidity?

It's a beauty nonetheless. The dial had imperfections before. I sincerely think it still holds tremendous value. Maybe a tick less.

[Kingface66]

Thanks for chiming in, fellas. It’s certainky possible it was the introduction of the environmental air that caused that reaction. Possibly some cleaner fumes. No idea. But, for the most part it’s only noticeable at certain angles with certain light. Still, just bummed about it

[Richard Carver]

They never stop aging. There are those who couldn't abide the spider cracks it had originally which didn't seem to bother you. It's still a beautiful gilt dial and very few people in the world have one.

There is simply no way to blame this on LAWW. California air did not cause a known defect to occur. On your second pic a couple of incipient bubbles can be observed. There's a Japanese concept called waba sabi in that there can be no beauty in perfection. It only becomes beautiful with imperfection and an understanding of impermanence which is really the nature of vintage and patina.

Enjoy your watch.

[roh123]

Very sorry to hear. Are you sure it was waterproof once it got back to you?

[037]

It's still a beautiful watch no less.

Look on the bright side, now you can start a hipster website called Bubbles & Patina and sell watch straps and bourbon.

[theflywrist]

Sorry to hear. It could literally have been anything, even something that may have resulted as aging process even if you hadn't changed the crown.
I suppose we will never know.
I wonder if this degradation in dial lacquer is also possible on matte dials due to changed air etc.
Normally they are less prone to bubbling I have noticed, aside from accidental tool marks etc.

As others have said, the watch is nevertheless absolutely beautiful, and I would not worry about it too much. Wear and enjoy in best health.

[dysondiver]

looks like a lot of change in a short period of time.

[Kingface66]

Thanks much, all. I’m resigned to just accepting this as part of the process of collecting and caring for these timepieces. And to echo what Richard said about “waba sabi” (a concept my girlfriend was just talking about with regards to these Asian handcrafted tea cups) I will say, that not a single watch, single vintage guitar (of which I have too many), nor a single bread I’ve baked, hasn’t had their share of flaws and blemishes. And I suppose, like someone you spend your life with, those blemishes only help make you cherish them as yours.

[SubMariner55]

The watch still looks great, this is a risk of owning vintage watches anything can happen when they are open up. I hope this wont happen to my 5513 from 66' its at service as we speak, to be honest got me worried a little now.

[Dan S]

Lovely example overall.

[05carbondrz]

Main reason I have left my all original 2nd owner 5513 Maxi MK1 unserviced.

[SubKing]

Sorry to hear of this.

Watches are not air tight, nor are they water proof. They are however water resistant to a certain depth and air resistant.

When you unscrew the crown to set the time, it lets fresh air into your watch. If you were to open the crown and go diving, you would get water ingress. So I don't think it bubbled because the watch was opened and all of a sudden had a reaction to the air.

It's a tough spot because you have had the watch for an entire year. You probably didn't notice it when it came back because they were not there. The "ticking time bomb" concept is very likely.

Any dial at any point in time can all of a sudden start to age or bubble, fade, crack etc. It could be a number of different factors. Dials could even start to spider crack if the movement mounting screws are over tightened when reinstalled.

Can't stop the aging process on any of these watches unfortunately. Continue to wear and enjoy I say.

Personally I wouldn't bring it up to LAWW. It's been a year and there is no proof that they did anything wrong on their part. Different story if you noticed it the day it was returned and even then its hard to point the finger. Certain amount of risk we all have to accept when our watches are sent for service. Lume could crack during shipment, lost or stolen packages and damage that can occur during service.

I read a story on TRF years ago that rolex Australia damaged a members double red seadweller dial. The paint peeled clean off the chapter ring when they removed it from the watch case. He was lucky because they ended up replacing the dial with another NOS vintage DRSD dial for him. I wish we all could be that lucky.

[andy2518]

There is little you can do to fight against the natural ageing process as Jack is saying in the Hodinkee article but it doesn't stop you worrying that it still may happen

[zapokee]

Your stoic approach is the right one. I've had lume plots fall off and dials deteriorate. It was shocking at first, but then, like you, I realized that's just part of being in the vintage game.

Time waits for no watch.

[MILGAUSS88]

Is it possible that is condensation or perhaps some oil from the movement that got through to the dial?
That is what it looks like to me from the photos.
Not in the paint, but on the paint. Or even the crystal.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Is it possible that is condensation or perhaps some oil from the movement that got through to the dial?
That is what it looks like to me from the photos.
Not in the paint, but on the paint. Or even the crystal.

I suppose it’s possible that it’s some fluid that condensates or, in the case of something water resistant, like oil, found its way to the dial (it’s def not on the crystal as I can view the effect from different angles it’s def. the dial).

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Sorry to hear of this.

Watches are not air tight, nor are they water proof. They are however water resistant to a certain depth and air resistant.

When you unscrew the crown to set the time, it lets fresh air into your watch. If you were to open the crown and go diving, you would get water ingress. So I don't think it bubbled because the watch was opened and all of a sudden had a reaction to the air.

It's a tough spot because you have had the watch for an entire year. You probably didn't notice it when it came back because they were not there. The "ticking time bomb" concept is very likely.

Any dial at any point in time can all of a sudden start to age or bubble, fade, crack etc. It could be a number of different factors. Dials could even start to spider crack if the movement mounting screws are over tightened when reinstalled.

Can't stop the aging process on any of these watches unfortunately. Continue to wear and enjoy I say.

Personally I wouldn't bring it up to LAWW. It's been a year and there is no proof that they did anything wrong on their part. Different story if you noticed it the day it was returned and even then its hard to point the finger. Certain amount of risk we all have to accept when our watches are sent for service. Lume could crack during shipment, lost or stolen packages and damage that can occur during service.

I read a story on TRF years ago that rolex Australia damaged a members double red seadweller dial. The paint peeled clean off the chapter ring when they removed it from the watch case. He was lucky because they ended up replacing the dial with another NOS vintage DRSD dial for him. I wish we all could be that lucky.

I agree that at this point I’d not bring it up w LAWW, except for asking them, just from their experience, if something like this has happened to a watch they’ve worked on, and if they concluded anything in terms of exactly what the cause was. But, I’m certainly not looking to blame anyone, per se. Just some possible explainations would be nice to hear.

[sensui]

I've actually heard a similar story from my watchmaker. He is very particular about working on vintage and the first thing he does is place the dial under a sealed glass dome after he disassembles. He told me one time he left the dial there undisturbed and came back to retrieve after some days for assembly and the bubbling/spots came. He was horrified and had to tell the owner who was heartbroken but thankfully understood. This is why he's super reluctant and careful when it comes to touching vintage dials in any way. Sorry op... Still beautiful though.

[Dr.Smellody]

Looks AMAZING to me!!

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

I agree that at this point I’d not bring it up w LAWW, except for asking them, just from their experience, if something like this has happened to a watch they’ve worked on, and if they concluded anything in terms of exactly what the cause was. But, I’m certainly not looking to blame anyone, per se. Just some possible explainations would be nice to hear.

I would certainly bring it up to them. Not to accuse them, or to harass them--simply to inform them of what happened and brainstorm about possible ways to prevent a re-occurrence. Maybe there is a change in procedure that can occur that might prevent this from happening. They'll never know unless you let them know.

[swish77]

Ah, man, sorry, that sucks, but it's still beautiful! I'd definitely talk to Beau to get feedback/theories.

Those gilt dials are vulnerable to this. Seen it many times, and one reason the super clean examples are so expensive. The dad of a good buddy of mine had a '65 gilt Sub since new that he wore every day. He took care of the watch, but the dial was a mess from normal aging ... blotches, bubbles and odd matte patches.

[SubKing]

If you are going to contact them about it, just put it very gently. Maybe start off the convo with something like "Not trying to place blame on you guys, only looking for some expert insight as to possible causes?" Share the before and after pictures in your email as well.

Either way, the watch is beautiful. You honestly will only notice this if you are looking up close and in the right light. I would continue to enjoy it no matter what. Just part of aging. As humans, we will all develop some cracks and bubbles eventually as well haha.

[Steve.KS4HE]

Natural patina makes your watch more authentic and more valuable.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Steve.KS4HE

Natural patina makes your watch more authentic and more valuable.

Not true.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Steve.KS4HE

Natural patina makes your watch more authentic and more valuable.

Um....a nice colored patina on the dial markers and hands is not quite the same as a bubbling, chipping, flaking, corroding, and turning to dust dial and hands.

[roh123]

Once again.. Super sorry to see this. Can’t imagine if it happened to any of my gilts.

Hope you still treasure and enjoy your watch. It is indeed still great; despite what happened.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by roh123

Once again.. Super sorry to see this. Can’t imagine if it happened to any of my gilts.

Hope you still treasure and enjoy your watch. It is indeed still great; despite what happened.

Thanks, Roh. Mercifully, it's rather discreet on the scale of things like all the lume falling out of the hands, or a deep drag mark around the dial. Still, it's not fun.

Incidentally, I did write a very open-hearted email to the guys at LAWW, mostly just for educational purposes. I'll let you all know what comes of it.

Again, thanks everyone.