The vagaries of the VRF "elite"... story told here since it was deleted on VRF

[rpmooreii]

I posted the following on VRF (Vintage Rolex Forum) and it was summarily deleted as were the posts by others asking where it was. As I rec'd a number of e-mails is strong support from VRF members (one saying it was the best post in more than a a year) I thought I would repost here for those who do not appreciate censorship. If this is out of place I apologize as I am not trying to start a war of words; rather I think it important for those who may be duped by some on VRF.

...Roger

_______________

Buying and selling – “buy the seller”… really? Or the vagaries of the VRF “elite”

After reading some of the recent threads regarding buying and selling on VRF I feel compelled to add my two cents as well as a couple of my experiences. While I am relatively new to VRF (18 months or so), I am a longtime TZ member (10 years) and a Rolex owner/collector since 1987. I am not a dealer and infrequently buy and sell. As an aside, I am also a vintage sports car collector (primarily German) since 1981 and therefore have some relevant experience buying/selling other high end collectibles. I am a US Naval Academy alum, have grad degrees from Stanford (engr) and Yale (business), and a long standing history of sr exec roles. I state this to illustrate, in advance of my remarks below, that I am neither the smartest guy in the world nor the dumbest. My remarks below are not meant as an indictment of any individual or individuals but rather an illustration of the “behind the scenes” undercurrent that seems to exist within this forum.

I read, with mixed emotions, the recent “frankenwatch” thread and understand the issues. While my comments do NOT relate to this posting, I find it hard to understand why anybody selling a $5,000 to $20,000 item would not take the time to fully and accurately describe an item for sale. Throwing up a pic or two combined with two or three sentences seems like a poor effort for a valuable item. Why not take the time to describe, in detail, both the good and bad about the item? If somebody was selling a Porsche 356 with a VW engine, the engine swap would be described even if it was obvious from the pic of the engine bay. The same is true of watches – if the seller knows the dial is not original, it should be so stated regardless of the pictures presented.

To be sure most watches that have a strong and documented background are described as such. In many cases (not all), it SEEMS (this is my opinion) that the short descriptions are a thinly veiled attempt to NOT disclose salient information. For my part, I only consider watches that are well described with lots of pics.

Of course, it is always the buyer’s responsibility to know what they are buying, to ask questions, and to get second opinions if they need them. Clearly, the buyer has the responsibility to adequately assess an item BEFORE purchasing but that does not absolve responsible sellers from disclosing what they know about a piece.

This forum is rife with suggestions to “buy the seller” etc but even SOME (not all) of the so-called (or self proclaimed) best VRF sellers will take advantage of those they THINK are newbies. In this spirit I would like to share a couple of experiences that I have had on VRF as both a buyer and seller.

Situation #1: Seeking to buy a matte 5513 and place a WTB ad for same. Well known Dealer A (many, many sales here and on other forums) offers up a late 8 mill with gloss dial. I respond that I am seeking a matte dial. A week later same dealer now send pics of another “original” 8 mill this time w/ a matte dial. As I compare pics from the first e-mail, I note the well worn insert has the exact same chips in the exact same locations. When I ask if this is the same watch from the prior week, I get a number of non-direct answers and when I point out that the insert is clearly the same, seller gets pissed off and states that I am being too picky… “parts get changed around all the time he says”. I decide not to buy any of his watches.

Situation #2: A “fool and his money are easily separated” rings true on many on-line forums but unfortunately I have also found on this forum a “fool and his watch are also easily separated”. In this case I was selling my excellent maxi 5513 for $4,000 or offering in trade for other interesting vintage sports. Reputable Dealer B (many “expert” posts on this forum) offers to trade a beat up modern, gold surround, 5513 straight across for my matte maxi stating that the modern piece is preferred. Clearly he does not realize that I have more than 20 years collecting. I respectfully decline and ask about a trade for a MF 5513 he has listed to which he declines stating that the MF is much preferred to a matte maxi. He then offers a similar (gloss, gold surround) GMT . I decide to deal with others not trying to pawn off clearly inferior pieces to which I do get a number of nice responses, none of whom are dealers or among the VRF elite.

Situation #3: Selling a nice meters first 5513 in 2010 with documented combat history. Reputable seller and VRF expert C e-mails to tell me that my price of $4,500 is absurdly high and that I should accept a much lower price. Same guy is selling similar watches w/o any history in worse condition for between 50%-100% more than my price. Again, Expert C must assume I am an idiot and is trying to get the watch on the cheap… probably to resell. Won’t deal w/ him again.

Situation #4: Offer up a nice matte MKI maxi 5513 on VRF for a fair (slightly below market) price. Frequent Poster D (who btw way has an exceptional collection) e-mails that he wants the watch and we agree to do the deal and he agrees to wire funds. Three days later no funds, no e-mails, no communication. I try to contact to no avail and therefore decide to keep the watch. Poster D is incredulous and “outraged” that I would renege on our deal. I state that he had three days to make payment and/or contact me and he never did so the deal is off. He says he has been busy with work yet has made numerous posts to VRF during the period in question. He claims that I am unethical and implies that he will blackball me on VRF. Nice guy, huh?

Situation #5. Purchase a nice sport Rolex from a frequent Rolex dive watch flipper E. We discuss over e-mail the terms and I ask for (in writing) a 3 day inspection. He agrees in writing. I get the watch and there is tritium floating under the crystal and I immediately (within 10 minutes of signing for watch) ask to return. He refuses stating that this is “normal”. When I post a rhetorical question on VRF (seller name omitted) about this situation and mention that his long time watchmaker agrees that I should be offered a refund, he get his cronies to post disparaging remarks on my posts. In addition, he comes down on watchmaker (who was unnamed in my post), and watchmaker then contacts me and strongly suggests that I should delete my posting on return privileges (which as a “new” VRFer we all know I could not edit the post even if I wanted to). Seller E then sends numerous disparaging e-mails and threatens to black ball me on VRF. Sounds familiar (see situation #4); what is it with these guys trying to “blackball” newbies.

It is a bit distressing that so many “old timers” feel compelled to toss their weight around as if, by mere virtue of being a member of VRF for a longer period of time, their views are somehow more relevant than so-called new comers (many of whom have long standing collections and deep knowledge). I enjoy many of the posts but am disgusted when the personal attacks start and have often considered moving away from this forum. It is also disappointing that SOME (not all) the “elite” think that they somehow have the right to cheat those who they perceive as newbies or threaten to blackball those that disagree with them. Clearly, a forum like this attracts all manner of people… basically a mirror of society at large… and there are honest members and those who seek to take advantage. As an aside, I would like to mention that I have not, and will not mention names. The scenarios are presented merely to illustrate the back alley aspect of the forum that is never mentioned.

In summary, I would submit that buyers and sellers should keep the following in mind:

1. Do not assume that just because someone is new to VRF that they are an idiot, are of lower status, or can be cheated. Many newcomers to VRF are just like me… a long history in vintage Rolex and they can see through the BS. You never know who is really behind the username so assume that the other party deserves respect unless they prove otherwise.
2. Do not assume that just because the “elite” of VRF are selling something that it is inherently good or being offered at a fair price. Personally, the best transactions have been with regular VRF, TRF, or TZ members. In fact, the highest priced and most suspect watches offered to me in the past two years have come from several of the VRF elite.
3. A $5,000-$25,000 item being offered for sale on-line should contain more than a bad picture and a one or two sentence description. Take pride in your listings and disclose what you know… both good and bad.
4. Buyers should be wary of those dealers that have grandiose descriptions of mediocre pieces regardless of the number of people that swear by them. If you ask questions and get only generalizations or short, evasive responses move on to the next one. If it smells bad it is probably a turd.
5. Don’t be in a rush to buy or sell. Find people with whom you can develop a rapport and mutual respect and do not rush into anything. There is always another one around the corner.
6. Do deals in person whenever possible; it is easy for the morally inept to hide behind the veil of the keyboard

For those who have read this far, I hope I have not bored you too much with my long winded post. I tend to not rock the boat but some of the recent “chest thumping” posts convinced me to sit down and collect my thoughts. If they are out of place I apologize.

Thanks,

…Roger

[mcjp6]

I would like to "bump" this post.

Anyone that knows me, knows that I spent 99% of my time on TRF in the "Watchout" forum.

A good percentage of Rogers comments made here would belong there too.....

Please read his post carefully and wherever you buy or sell, take care.......

[jedly1]

as i obviously missed most of this today, i find it quite interesting ...please could i ask one question though ...re these so called 'VRF elite' i presume you mean dealers of which you had bad dealings... are you saying they are people who only have a prescence and trade on VRF exclusively ..not for example on TRF/TZ ? etc etc

[GeorgeK]

Sounds all too familiar.
I have been low-balled so badly, it would have been more polite to insult me point blank. Funnily, the items sold for asking price shortly after.

Quite a few of the well established people here are taking advantage of their self-perceived superiority. Most of these would shrivel to nothing if they were to face their victims.

Sadly it is prominent with Rolex owners/collectors.

Luckily there are quite a few genuinely honest people here (and on VRF).

[Earl]

very well written Roger Moore

[dysondiver]

good read the op , and many thanks again to mcjp6.

[landroverking]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

Sounds all too familiar.
I have been low-balled so badly, it would have been more polite to insult me point blank. Funnily, the items sold for asking price shortly after.

Quite a few of the well established people here are taking advantage of their self-perceived superiority. Most of these would shrivel to nothing if they were to face their victims.

Sadly it is prominent with Rolex owners/collectors.

Luckily there are quite a few genuinely honest people here (and on VRF).

Well one point about low-balling it's a buyers market in these times.

[Kokyuryoku]

Very interesting read and great points. Thanks for posting this

[SWIMPRUF]

Good read.

[johnbeth]

Excellent post by the op!

[Lol-x]

Good post and points well made. In fairness there are a lot of excellent people on VRF and a great many positive experiences.

In any internet transaction one must be vigilent.

[onkyo]

Thanks for posting Roger Moore.

Though most of my experiences on VRF have been excellent, I do know who to stay away from.... and that list is growing.

[adt]

interesting read. i find TRF much friendlier than VRF.

[kareemthedream33]

I've only sold a few things on here but some of the PM's I got were so incredibly rude. Most of them very polite, but some were just awful.

I had a guy call me and give me a speech about why my Sea Dweller was only worth $3400 a few months ago and was so arrogant about it.

Selling things on here can be very frustrating. Thankfully, if you are patient you will likely find decent people to do business with!

[Puffy]

great post mate! your viewpoints are shared by many here, hence your post is still here!!

[DiamondJack]

A reasoned and very well argued post. Ultimately, all forums end up a little bit like a "members club" and I am sure behind the scenes certain manouvering and tactical postings go on. But ultimately, your comment that "a fool and his money are easily parted" is the overiding message members should take to heart. For me, this is just an enjoyable pastime. But for some, it is clearly a business and this is probably where their better judgement is swayed. I would always prefer to deal with a member in a similar position to me than someone who is effectively running a business via the various forums.

In any event, I don't have the patience to navigate the clunky VRF site for more than a few minutes and, whilst there is undoubtedly a lot of knowledgeable members, I prefer to stick to TRF which is far more user friendly and also has extremely experienced collectors who are happy to share their knowledge.

[Jagatai]

I still think "buy the seller" is a good advice.
Buy the seller because of how good their stock is, how good the quality of their photographs are and how honest their description is.
Then if you buy the watch, how smooth the transaction is.

Listen, I've only done two deals, both based on forum members recommendations.
I'm 2 for 2, and based on that I know I'd def do business with them again.

[Michael M.]

Awesome post, great points!

[Lisa]

Originally Posted by landroverking

Well one point about low-balling it's a buyers market in these times.

Right - I'm not a regular seller, but the two of my personal Rolexes that I listed for sale here received some incredibly low offers. No doubt some of those offers were from dealers interested in resale at a much higher price. That's business and I accept it. There's no reason to be offended at a low offer, IMO.

[SPARTAN2161]

Have had very similar problems with VRF community. I realize a lot of those guys are members here as well but this tends to be a more welcoming place. And as for the dealers, i have had similar experiences. I do not post any of my watches there anymore for that reason. Thanks for the post!

[psv]

I couldn't agree with you more! Very well said and it a sad that VRF takes down your post. I've been a member for a few years myself but it is clear that they don't want open and transparent discussion over there.

[Lisa]

Originally Posted by psv

I couldn't agree with you more! Very well said and it a sad that VRF takes down your post. I've been a member for a few years myself but it is clear that they don't want open and transparent discussion over there.

Hopefully some of the VRF people can lend their expertise over here. I just can't use that site very well...

[Beaumont Miller II]

Roger I am sorry you have had such negative experiences buying and selling in the past. I find TRF a very friendly site...mods don't tolerate people stepping too far out of bounds. I notice on the vintage side here you don't post as much. It's a shame because I miss your well thought out responses and insight. As for the 5513 you helped me locate, I am indebted to you. It is one of my favorite watches I own.

[rpmooreii]

Thanks for all the great feedback and support fellow TRFers! I have also rec'd many PMs from people here and the few who saw my post on VRF before it was deleted.

To answer Jedly1's question: only one of the people in my cases (Situation 1) seems to post regularly on forums other than VRF/VRM. Of course, I should point out that I have also had pleasant experiences on VRF and met a number of very nice fellow collectors (90% or whom were NOT dealers). And of course, Jedly1's comments on both this board and VRF are, without exception, well thought out and informative. I would not hesitate in the least to purchase from him even though I do not know him personally. My only hope is that he can talk some sense into the power structure at VRF to eliminate the abuses of influence on that site.

Again I appreciate the mods here allowing me to post this on TRF.

...Roger

[Chris B]

Bravo Mr Moore

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

Good post and points well made. In fairness there are a lot of excellent people on VRF and a great many positive experiences.

In any internet transaction one must be vigilent.

Originally Posted by Lol-x

Good post and points well made. In fairness there are a lot of excellent people on VRF and a great many positive experiences.

In any internet transaction one must be vigilent.

Err Buddies...Orchi echoes Buddy Steve's sentiments...

Having that said though...Orchi is in total agreement with Buddy RPMoore...
n applauds his great courage to voice out aloud...n in all honestly...

Even for Orchi...the journey n experience in VRF has had its fair shares of ups n downs...
There were plenty of sweet memorable moments...
there were a quite a bit of sad n disappointing memories too...

On hindsight...Orchi for one has gained a lot of friendships from VRF...
yet crossed swords with many resident experts there n many of whom are...
full time or hardcore dealers themselves...
more than being collectors...
...or how they would perceive themselves to be...in contrary.

However...during the same period of time...
Orchi has also made the acquaintance with a number of foes in there too...
n a couple of them have since joined TRF...
or they could be the other existing TRF Buddies...
who seems to be treating Orchi the same...
like they are seeing nails sticking out of a wooden plank...

Until at some points quite often...
Orchi would be personally attacked with barrage of name callings...
smearing n character assassinated...by the relevant VRF Buddies...
who seems to dislike Orchi's face...

Perhaps Orchi had stepped on one too many toe nails there...
or perhaps Orchi had said tewwible things...

The ONE thing in absolute certainty...
Orchi has done to any one of them NOT any harm...
personally...nor has Orchi cheated them of ONE single cent in denomination...
of any currency...

Yet unbelievably so...these other Buddies...
would carry with them...a load of axes to grind...
n plenty of hatred with Orchi...

Nevertheless...
the sweetest moments would occur...
whenever...Orchi receives many emails of guidance from the Administrator
n certain Moderators of VRF in support...
Also Orchi would get emails with constant advises from some of the most renown collectors n authors of BEST selling books of Vintage Rolex...
as well as getting emails offering friendship from the other Buddies...
whom had treated Orchi as their enemy before...
in the early beginning of Orchi's journey in VRF...

n the journey shall continue...

[Dan2010]

I just have one question...............Are you THE Roger Moore??? Bond, James Bond??

[Timber Loftis]

I like Orchi, but Orchi's refusal to talk in the first person gives me the willies.

Good thread, 9/10 for good drama, and for stating what is all-too-obvious and all-too-often unsaid.

Any effort to make a "market" for items will result in high asks vs. low offers, it's bound to happen. But, over time, a constant seller can, IMO, hurt himself with repeated posts that are of, shall we say, an incredulous nature. It happens to me all the time on the various buying forums -- I see a name next to a nice but otherwise unremarkable watch (GMT, Expy II, and Sub seem to be the most reoccurring ones) and I just know before I click it that the seller is asking upwards of 20% more than the credible value. Over time, I just start ignoring those names and don't even look at their watches.

[RolexWatcher]

Originally Posted by Dan2010

I just have one question...............Are you THE Roger Moore??? Bond, James Bond??

Might be hard to be THE Roger Moore given Roger was English and was in the British Army rather than the US Army but we can only hope! :)

[Dan2010]

Originally Posted by RolexWatcher

Might be hard to be THE Roger Moore given Roger was English and was in the British Army rather than the US Army but we can only hope! :)

Good catch, good catch!