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Old 21 August 2011, 01:07 AM   #61
jedly1
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Oh and ps don't bother accusing me of having motives as a dealer .. Getting embroiled with you in this manner is the last thing a dealer would or should do, as I'm sure those who feel I'm being mean to you will avoid me like the plague from now on.
Err Buddy Jedly or Andrew...
NOT sure what others would think about you now...
n Orchi certainly can't speak on their behalves...

Despite your displeasure(or hatred) of Orchi...
shown for whatever reasons that you may possess...
(perhaps being the 3rd person n referring to everyone as "Buddy" which is merely a way of Orchi trying to be polite in addressing a fellow member)
Orchi still has high regards for your mileages scored...
n thinks you should still be likable...
due to your vast knowledge n experience with Vintage Rolex...

But the last thing you wanna do is to let your displeasure of Orchi...
clouds your professionalism n expertise in the business n "hobby" of yours...
Else Orchi for one might think that you have gotten a bigger head...
n attempting a bigger hat than that to fit...

Sorry though for the digression...
Hopes we can get back to the topic asap....


What a classic piece of passive aggression ... At first glance a pleasant and friendly submissive respOnse .... But veiled attack ... Just stand up and be counted as a man .....If you can just once speak plain and true .... So again buddy orchi is a victim ...of big headed bullies who hate poor orchi ....

It is 1am here, so before I write you a pictorial essay about USA papers .....
Please confirm what you are saying .... Please confirm what you hint at ..... So now this watch is ... Overpolished to the piont that it is not worthy to be kept as a watch .... Is the wrong dial ( or have you admitted you were wrong) .... Not worth $4500 (or are you wrong about that also ) ....... And before I answer please importantly confirm ..... Are you saying these papers are faked .... Simple question .... Yes or no ...
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:30 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedly1 View Post
It is 1am here, so before I write you a pictorial essay about USA papers .....
Please confirm what you are saying .... Please confirm what you hint at ..... So now this watch is ... Overpolished to the piont that it is not worthy to be kept as a watch .... Is the wrong dial ( or have you admitted you were wrong) .... Not worth $4500 (or are you wrong about that also ) ....... And before I answer please importantly confirm ..... Are you saying these papers are faked .... Simple question .... Yes or no ...
Err Buddy Jedly or Andrew...
NOT being drawn by your never ending anger...

But would like to respond to your questions...
do read again what Orchi said in previous postings to begin with about the watch...
It was from Orchi's opinions of the watch at that time...
whether you like them or not...it is your own business.

No...Orchi even said the paper was original...
n certainly Orchi didn't say the paper is fakeee...
Orchi merely asked if it was possible for the watch to have that COSC paper...(in French n marked ROLEX SA)
with details of USA dealer...n written date in that format...
n whether the certain details of the paper that Buddy Marcello said was correct...or not.

http://www.rolexforums.com/showpost....8&postcount=55

P/S:

There has been many of Orchi's postings n presence in here so far...
NOT running away or hiding...
n still standing...which you have implied otherwise...
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:31 AM   #63
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Without opening the cseback, I think its totally worth $4500.

The midcase to most here doesnt really break the deal.

I am though, a mid case freak and chamfer rates way high above a spider webbed trit matte dial, but thats me...

This piece is a great deal ~ !

Randy

ibtl !

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Old 21 August 2011, 01:33 AM   #64
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1675 paper

a "standard" paper simply means that a paper belongs to the prevalent option.
this doesn't absolutely means that a paper for USA ( or for the american market ) must be in english to be genuine.
for the IFF identification ( Friend or Foe ) every damned paper must be checked in all his elements and also in "the context" ( compared to the other features of the watch ) .
just for example here are some papers for many different markets , all printed in a language that makes them different from the standard configuration :

1) 1655- case range 3.50 for Mexico , paper in french language :



2) 1675-case range 2.94 sold in a US Navy PX , paper in french :



3) gold datejust sold to Curacao , paper in french :



4) 1665 with special dial for Bucherer ( Switzerland ) with paper in english :

.

some pictures courtesy of a US friend of mine ( E.K. ) others courtesy of my records ... LLLOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:38 AM   #65
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and also the damned box is correct : the box code is "06-00-06" and was in use during the 70s also for datejust and other watches ( excluding submariners and seadwellers ).
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:38 AM   #66
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I said this earlier and I want to say it again. Is this what its come to? To buy or sell a watch these days? The OP started the thread as he had an interest in buying this. The seller agreed to this also and welcomed opinions. He is a good guy BTW.I am a big boy and have spent lots of money learning about watches throughout the years as others and I don't need my hand held to make a decision. To somebody that doesn't know what I or others know this looks like a circus of uncertainty. Can you imagine a common watch has to be dissected by some of the smartest minds in vintage for what purpose ? To sell it? To show whats right or wrong? To show who knows more than the other guy? To get the last word or to discredit somebody ?This watch is not fake or franken and it should sell if priced right FAST.
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:41 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greekbum View Post
I said this earlier and I want to say it again. Is this what its come to? To buy or sell a watch these days? I am a big boy and have spent lots of money learning about watches throughout the years as others and I don't need my hand held to make a decision. To somebody that doesn't know what I or others know this looks like a circus of uncertainty. Can you imagine a common watch has to be dissected by some of the smartest minds in vintage for what purpose ? To sell it? To show whats right or wrong? To show who knows more than the other guy? To get the last word or to discredit somebody ?This watch is not fake or franken and it should sell if priced right FAST.
just to learn
( and also for something else I cannot say ........... )
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:43 AM   #68
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I think this is a forum at its best. Orchi asks a question. Everyone learns something. How he asked it, whether it irritates or not is not the concern of a general reader or newbie. If Orchi didnt hint or wonder about such things out loud, MP wouldnt have shown his pictoral library :)

What we do need here is less aggression in general (passive or not) as we are all buddies into the same hobby
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:47 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by marcello pisani View Post
from the pictures shown :
1) the case ( according to official Rolex Tables ) is a late 1972 production ;
2) the paper with the code "570-01-300" is the standard one for chronometer watches used around the middle of the 70s ; in fact it has a production date ( bottom right ) " 5-74 " that is consistent to the time of case-production ;
the pierced case numbers are correct and consistent to the period.
the papers written in French were the standard ones for European and International market ( besides Far-east and English spoken countries ).

3) the case has been certainly polished ( in mho no more than once ) as lugs are still thicke ; the dial is correct for the case range and personally I would go back to the pristine insert.
in any case this is more than a "decent" watch , not mint but still quite good in his overall conditions.
Augh !!!!! LLLOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Err Buddy Marcello...
TQ for responding...

Contrary to the statement you made earlier...
would you amend to say now that...
that the STANDARD COSC Certification(in French)
is also correct for English speaking countries...
such as USA...UK...Mexico...n Canada...etc.etc...??
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:55 AM   #70
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Anything vintage can be nit-picked, but this is a fabulous watch with all the goodies. Just stunning. I had been looking for about a year for ANY 1675 in good condition and didn't see many examples this nice, unless it had a crazy price tag. Let the hardcore dealers/collectors arm-wrestle over lug chamfers. Some of us just love the beauty of a correct vintage Rolex with stunning patina. I'd be very happy to have this watch.
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Old 21 August 2011, 01:58 AM   #71
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I don't amend a bloody nothing : stop with this habit !!
I have never written that a paper in french is not correct for a watch sold in USA ,
but just that papers written in french are the standard ones for european and international market ( besides far-east and english spoken country )
this is btw the first and last time I answer you on this forum ( as I have already done on VRF ).
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:01 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by marcello pisani View Post
a "standard" paper simply means that a paper belongs to the prevalent option.
this doesn't absolutely means that a paper for USA ( or for the american market ) must be in english to be genuine.
for the IFF identification ( Friend or Foe ) every damned paper must be checked in all his elements and also in "the context" ( compared to the other features of the watch ) .
just for example here are some papers for many different markets , all printed in a language that makes them different from the standard configuration :

2) 1675-case range 2.94 sold in a US Navy PX , paper in french :



some pictures courtesy of a US friend of mine ( E.K. ) others courtesy of my records
Err Buddy Marcello...
The US Navy were stationed in many parts of the world...

Say in Thailand or Guam also...for an example...besides UK.
From where would be logical that the US Navy Exchange got their supply...
of Rolex watches from...??

Would you say the watches also sailed along from USA...??
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:06 AM   #73
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Since the discussion has turned to papers......
Rolex USA is the sole importer of Rolex watches in the USA am I correct ?
They issue a warranty certificate that says Rolex USA am I correct ?
It looks something like this correct?Bottom of thread.
Now who is to say that a dealer didn't go outside the USA buy this watch and sell it in a jewelry store and write whatever he wanted on the papers? I for 1 have seen more vintage watches sold with papers in the last 5 years then in the previous 20. In the USA it is much more rare to find a watch with papers than say other parts of the world.Watches change hands frequently here and who keeps papers?I cannot find modern with papers easily let alone 30-40 year old ones. What are the odds a rare watch that has been bought and sold numerous times in the 70's-80's 90's when nobody cared about this stuff is still intact.Its a very small percentage but they do show up.Most of what you see IMHO has been recreated. YES I said it. It doesn't take a nuclear engineer to figure out who is the buyer of these loose or blank certs on ebay and at watch shows all north of $1000. Its somebody looking to SELL his watch for more money. Are they buying them to wallpaper there bathrooms? NO they are making complete sets as they can add much more to the final sale than the cost of the paper. They are even buying stamped ones and having the cases either re engraved or made new with these numbers. Folks it doesn't end and this is why you need to know what your getting into when buying vintage. Not every body is out to screw you either.
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:18 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by greekbum View Post
Since the discussion has turned to papers......
Rolex USA is the sole importer of Rolex watches in the USA am I correct ?
They issue a warranty certificate that says Rolex USA am I correct ?
It looks something like this correct?Bottom of thread.
Now who is to say that a dealer didn't go outside the USA buy this watch and sell it in a jewelry store and write whatever he wanted on the papers? I for 1 have seen more vintage watches sold with papers in the last 5 years then in the previous 20. In the USA it is much more rare to find a watch with papers than say other parts of the world.Watches change hands frequently here and who keeps papers?I cannot find modern with papers easily let alone 30-40 year old ones. What are the odds a rare watch that has been bought and sold numerous times in the 70's-80's 90's when nobody cared about this stuff is still intact.Its a very small percentage but they do show up.Most of what you see IMHO has been recreated. YES I said it. It doesn't take a nuclear engineer to figure out who is the buyer of these loose or blank certs on ebay and at watch shows all north of $1000. Its somebody looking to SELL his watch for more money. Are they buying them to wallpaper there bathrooms? NO they are making complete sets as they can add much more to the final sale than the cost of the paper. They are even buying stamped ones and having the cases either re engraved or made new with these numbers. Folks it doesn't end and this is why you need to know what your getting into when buying vintage. Not every body is out to screw you either.
Thanks for sharing the recreating part, is scary. So do they use aged paper and print on it, then punch a number into it to look right? Is there any way of telling if is original for example is it genuine if the watermark is present in the certificate?
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:21 AM   #75
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there is also another point Niko : up to the very early 90s .. AD could buy some watches directly at Geneva ....( in times like in the 70s and first half of the 80s when almost/all papers were without country code ).
in any case the punching of numbers with correct fonts is not enough to state if a paper is gernuine or not , as there are many other things to check , such as :
1) paper code ( in other words if it has been used the right paper for that case number )
2) "ageing" ( something not very easy to do ... as for ex. also the "smell" is different )
3) presence or lack of other elements in the paper ( such as his time of production )
4) naturaly aged dealer printings/writings ...
and so on ...
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:24 AM   #76
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:28 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by marcello pisani View Post
there is also another point Niko : up to the very early 90s .. AD could buy some watches directly at Geneva ....( in times like in the 70s and first half of the 80s when almost/all papers were without country code ).
Thank you I did not know this but I also did not doubt the papers in the set either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruvon View Post
Thanks for sharing the recreating part, is scary. So do they use aged paper and print on it, then punch a number into it to look right? Is there any way of telling if is original for example is it genuine if the watermark is present in the certificate?
Not sure as I don't pay extra for papers unless I buy from the original owner or there is more to the package as service papers history letters a trail etc. To me papers are nice to have and I might pay a little more but I have my limits as a nice watch to me is what I want. Others however will pay insane money for a complete set versus a loose watch. Everybody has different tastes. I am done posting in this thread enjoy
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:33 AM   #78
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Thank you I did not know this but I also did not doubt the papers in the set either.


Not sure as I don't pay extra for papers unless I buy from the original owner or there is more to the package as service papers history letters a trail etc. To me papers are nice to have and I might pay a little more but I have my limits as a nice watch to me is what I want. Others however will pay insane money for a complete set versus a loose watch. Everybody has different tastes. I am done posting in this thread enjoy
Thanks again for sharing Nikos. Is 2.30am here but I can't help but peep into this thread from my iPhone while asleep:)
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:37 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by marcello pisani View Post
a "standard" paper simply means that a paper belongs to the prevalent option.
this doesn't absolutely means that a paper for USA ( or for the american market ) must be in english to be genuine.
for the IFF identification ( Friend or Foe ) every damned paper must be checked in all his elements and also in "the context" ( compared to the other features of the watch ) .
just for example here are some papers for many different markets , all printed in a language that makes them different from the standard configuration :

1) 1655- case range 3.50 for Mexico , paper in french language :



2) 1675-case range 2.94 sold in a US Navy PX , paper in french :



3) gold datejust sold to Curacao , paper in french :



4) 1665 with special dial for Bucherer ( Switzerland ) with paper in english :

.

some pictures courtesy of a US friend of mine ( E.K. ) others courtesy of my records ... LLLOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Thats a wealth of information Marcello, thanks!!
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:40 AM   #80
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Since the discussion has turned to papers......
Rolex USA is the sole importer of Rolex watches in the USA am I correct ?
They issue a warranty certificate that says Rolex USA am I correct ?
It looks something like this correct?Bottom of thread.
Now who is to say that a dealer didn't go outside the USA buy this watch and sell it in a jewelry store and write whatever he wanted on the papers? I for 1 have seen more vintage watches sold with papers in the last 5 years then in the previous 20. In the USA it is much more rare to find a watch with papers than say other parts of the world.Watches change hands frequently here and who keeps papers?I cannot find modern with papers easily let alone 30-40 year old ones. What are the odds a rare watch that has been bought and sold numerous times in the 70's-80's 90's when nobody cared about this stuff is still intact.Its a very small percentage but they do show up.Most of what you see IMHO has been recreated. YES I said it. It doesn't take a nuclear engineer to figure out who is the buyer of these loose or blank certs on ebay and at watch shows all north of $1000. Its somebody looking to SELL his watch for more money. Are they buying them to wallpaper there bathrooms? NO they are making complete sets as they can add much more to the final sale than the cost of the paper. They are even buying stamped ones and having the cases either re engraved or made new with these numbers. Folks it doesn't end and this is why you need to know what your getting into when buying vintage. Not every body is out to screw you either.
Err Buddy Nikos...Orchi too was lucky enough to get this Minty 1675 GMT...
with original papers n box + its original accessories...
from an incredible US Vintage watch Dealer...

The watch was originally sold in USA...
n the papers are in English...

P/S:

It might be possible for any USA dealers to buy watches in SWISS or elsewhere...
outside of USA...
n have it resold in USA...
But mostly likely in that possibility...
the USA dealer could have gotten the watch...
with SWISS made band...from the source outside of USA.

If you want to...please guess how much Orchi paid for this 1675 GMT package...
USD 5,200 SHIPPED to Orchi...
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File Type: jpg gmtboxpapers-3.jpg (68.4 KB, 225 views)
File Type: jpg gmtboxpapers-5.jpg (73.0 KB, 224 views)
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:42 AM   #81
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i think this is a forum at its best. Orchi asks a question. Everyone learns something. How he asked it, whether it irritates or not is not the concern of a general reader or newbie. If orchi didnt hint or wonder about such things out loud, mp wouldnt have shown his pictoral library :)

what we do need here is less aggression in general (passive or not) as we are all buddies into the same hobby
+1:)
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:48 AM   #82
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Thanks, it is good to know that we are in safe hands..... Jedly1........
+1, beginning to envy Jed:)
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Old 21 August 2011, 02:52 AM   #83
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Wow what a thread... Some heavy hitters going pound for pound. Learned a ton in the past 10 minutes.

Thanks fellas.
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Old 21 August 2011, 03:18 AM   #84
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the english and french paper where the serial is just jotted down lead me to believe that the ADs had blank ones on hand to provide with the watch. who can say whether US dealers were given these in other languages. the hole-punchy ones i guess originate from Swtzrlnd. i suppose when they made the watch, they could have paired up the papers. who knows if they were aware of the final destination. seems very speculative, no ? back in the day, i dont think anyone at rolex gave much of a shite about this. if they did, those papers with the penned-in numbers would not exist. harry
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Old 21 August 2011, 03:20 AM   #85
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never mind...

sibtl !
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Old 21 August 2011, 03:33 AM   #86
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never mind...
Err Buddy...since you have asked...
The 1675 GMT package was bought in Mid 2009...

The Vintage watch Market took a dive since...
n even prices n marketability of Vintage Rolex watches...
have not been spared...

n every now n then...
whenever Orchi posts anything...
with regards to anything to do with "prices dropping"...
or "watches are cheaper now"...
Orchi would hit the anger scales of Dealers n Collectors...
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Old 21 August 2011, 03:50 AM   #87
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Err Buddy...since you have asked...
The 1675 GMT package was bought in Mid 2009...

The Vintage watch Market took a dive since...
n even prices n marketability of Vintage Rolex watches...
have not been spared...

n every now n then...
whenever Orchi posts anything...
with regards to anything to do with "prices dropping"...
or "watches are cheaper now"...
Orchi would hit the anger scales of Dealers n Collectors...
Thanks for your response Orchi
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Old 21 August 2011, 04:07 AM   #88
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Err buddies...not sure how was the arrangement by Rolex...
for Vintage Rolex watches that were marketed in Canada...
especially after the end of 60s...

But this particular one 5512...
is said to have been sold by 1967...



It has the Rolex paper in...English...



n the paper production date was 1966...
detailing watch probably sold in 1967...
(hand written "May 21/67"...sold by "Peoples Credit Jewellers"...
spelled with extra "L")

Guess it might be common...
especially in those early days...
for using hand writing...
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Old 21 August 2011, 05:00 AM   #89
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shocking is that Sarnia Ontario would give birth to that beautiful watch.

glad to see the tones of the posting has come down a bit.

i think all of you need to agree that condition is a matter of opinion based on internet pics. imagie the shite that would fly is this was a Diamond Grading forum. the color, clarity disputes would be never ending. said in jest, harry in montreal
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Old 21 August 2011, 09:06 AM   #90
jedly1
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Morning all ..... Yes orchi it is perfectly correct for a three million USA papers to be in french. Generally from the start of the 3 millions (ish) from USA thou will see French one piece papers , both punched and the very strange style - will post a picture later ... Then from late 3 mill into 4 it becomes English language and still
Punched , before around the 6 mill becoming typed ...

Pre the 3 million era is a total minefield of double punched two piece papers that vary wildly form place to place including the strange style of your gmt

I don't necessarily concur on bobs work / chronology but he put a lot of work into this and if nothing else is a great pictorial resource for papers ....


Oh and of three USA px supplied pieces I have had , all were stamped as supplied by Rolex new york
Www.rolexephemera.com
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