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Old 15 September 2018, 07:16 AM   #121
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Exactly the point. Think about it.
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You mean similar to using your massive Twitter following to accuse someone of being a pedophiliac (3 times) after they rescued little children stranded in cave? That kind of internet mobbing?
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Old 15 September 2018, 04:52 PM   #122
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Two comments.

Mercedes EQC. (absolutely gorgeous and beyond expectation)
Audi eTron.

Nuff said.
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Old 16 September 2018, 12:18 AM   #123
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Two comments.

Mercedes EQC. (absolutely gorgeous and beyond expectation)
Audi eTron.

Nuff said.
You forgot Taycan too.
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Old 18 October 2018, 05:58 AM   #124
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I hope you don't have to much money in the other direction
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Old 18 October 2018, 07:57 AM   #125
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Did any of these other companies PUT A CAR IN SPACE??

Huh?

😜
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Old 18 October 2018, 09:50 AM   #126
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Did any of these other companies PUT A CAR IN SPACE??

Huh?

😜
Haha that was a murder plot! j/k
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Old 18 October 2018, 08:14 PM   #127
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Did any of these other companies PUT A CAR IN SPACE??
That's SpaceX, a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT company. TSLA stock and business, thankfully, has virtually nothing to do with SpaceX. Am sooo glad Musk leaves SpaceX alone (per se).

Let's hope Musk doesn't start tweeting about SpaceX, because i have friends at Kennedy Space Center and we frankly don't need his 'help' with tweets judging by his 'work tweets' with helping stock shorts on TSLA.

And if Elon is reading this, LOOK, A SHINY THING... work on that shiny thing and leave SpaceX alone (per se).

Pretty please with sugar on top and a cherry.

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Old 18 October 2018, 10:28 PM   #128
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That's SpaceX, a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT company. TSLA stock and business, thankfully, has virtually nothing to do with SpaceX. Am sooo glad Musk leaves SpaceX alone (per se).


I agree that the legal underpinnings are totally separate. But there is some intangible nexus misplaced by novice investors.

I think the earlier value of TSLA shares (before the 420 tweet about going private) had an intangible “Musk mystique” adder.

I think SpaceX success and prospective Boring progress rubs off on Musk and is intertwined in some people’s minds. Muck like the way Jobs’ mystique (albeit for different reasons) applied to Apple products back in his heyday.

The Musk mystique deflated upon further consideration of his stability in the days after the 420 tweet. That had nothing to do with either SpaceX or Boring - but it took some shine off his personal mystique.

After TSLA stock settled we could see the value of the Musk mystique was around 70 points.


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Old 18 October 2018, 11:06 PM   #129
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I have a friend who works at Tesla (engineer) so natch you can't say anything bad about Musk or the company around him. A coworker just bought a 3, and although I saw no obvious signs of poor quality, it is quite austere and for $55K I think I - I know I - prefer a nicely equipped BMW or Audi. Which is what I drive.

I have considered the Model S twice, but the dearth of superchargers in or on the way to places that I like to visit (mountains, coast) in this state made me think twice, plus all of the problems with those cars plus the lack of luxury features and quality materials that I've come to expect in a $100K car kept me from buying. But they do drive nicely and that torque... man, all of that torque, quiet, smooth power is intoxicating!
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Old 19 October 2018, 01:03 AM   #130
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...and that torque... man, all of that torque, quiet, smooth power is intoxicating!
100% agree about TQ. Good things is, BMW, Mercedes and many other longstanding reputable companies with local service centers have / soon have exciting offerings. A combo of tech like Ferrari and others are doing (gas and electric) is a nice hybrid overall that 'solves' a variety of problems of each and thus work on the strengths / benefits of each technology.

Give it two years, then take a look at the battery-powered landscape is my opinion before jumping the shark into TSLA.
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Old 19 October 2018, 01:21 AM   #131
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100% agree about TQ. Good things is, BMW, Mercedes and many other longstanding reputable companies with local service centers have / soon have exciting offerings. A combo of tech like Ferrari and others are doing (gas and electric) is a nice hybrid overall that 'solves' a variety of problems of each and thus work on the strengths / benefits of each technology.

Give it two years, then take a look at the battery-powered landscape is my opinion before jumping the shark into TSLA.
Hybrids are the way to go if you live outside major metro’s, where enroute charging is not generally available. You get electric TQ where you need it and fueled HP where you need it. The combined performance is very good (check out the Cayenne Hybrid).

The battery charging system is onboard and there are fuel stations everywhere. Maybe in ten years it will he easy to take long trips on full electric, but for now, hybrids do all the right things for most people.
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Old 19 October 2018, 05:15 AM   #132
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Until a full-charge cycle for a 100% EV’s equals the time to fill the tank of today’s fossil fuel cars, I believe the hybrids will rule the roost in “green personal transport” for consumers.

Adding high efficiency solar to rooftops could extend the range on EV’s for daytime drivers. But the technology needs a better improvement curve than Moore’s Law offered in electronics.


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Old 19 October 2018, 05:34 AM   #133
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I have a friend who works at Tesla (engineer) so natch you can't say anything bad about Musk or the company around him. A coworker just bought a 3, and although I saw no obvious signs of poor quality, it is quite austere and for $55K I think I - I know I - prefer a nicely equipped BMW or Audi. Which is what I drive.

I have considered the Model S twice, but the dearth of superchargers in or on the way to places that I like to visit (mountains, coast) in this state made me think twice, plus all of the problems with those cars plus the lack of luxury features and quality materials that I've come to expect in a $100K car kept me from buying. But they do drive nicely and that torque... man, all of that torque, quiet, smooth power is intoxicating!
, sorry, but the torque without the sound to my ears is ehhh.
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Old 19 October 2018, 08:58 AM   #134
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Hybrids are the way to go if you live outside major metro’s, where enroute charging is not generally available. You get electric TQ where you need it and fueled HP where you need it. The combined performance is very good (check out the Cayenne Hybrid).

The battery charging system is onboard and there are fuel stations everywhere. Maybe in ten years it will he easy to take long trips on full electric, but for now, hybrids do all the right things for most people.
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Until a full-charge cycle for a 100% EV’s equals the time to fill the tank of today’s fossil fuel cars, I believe the hybrids will rule the roost in “green personal transport” for consumers.

Adding high efficiency solar to rooftops could extend the range on EV’s for daytime drivers. But the technology needs a better improvement curve than Moore’s Law offered in electronics.


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As a hybrid-only buyer, completely agree with you two. I hope soon electric recharge will be as easy as filling up a tank, but until then, hybrids are the solution
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Old 19 October 2018, 03:47 PM   #135
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, sorry, but the torque without the sound to my ears is ehhh.
Drive one.

Everyone is talking about all of these older car companies jumping into electric. They don't do 0-60 in 2 seconds. It is really hard to buy a 2s car, and they are actually usable as transportation. You can fit 2 adults and 5 kids in the S and X.

0-60 times:

Model S P100 -- 2.3s

Model X P100 - 2.8s.

Model 3 "Sport" - 3.2s

Bugatti Chiron 2.3s

Ferrari LaFerrari FXX 2.4s

Koenigsegg One:1, 2017 911 Turbo S, McLaren P1 GTR -2.5s

Ferrari Enzo - 2.8s

Ferrari 812 Superfast - 2.8s

2018 R8 big engine - 3.2s

https://www.zeroto60times.com/fastes...-60-mph-times/

2019 ECQ 4.9s

i8 4.0s
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Old 19 October 2018, 07:39 PM   #136
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Drive one.

Everyone is talking about all of these older car companies jumping into electric. They don't do 0-60 in 2 seconds. It is really hard to buy a 2s car, and they are actually usable as transportation. You can fit 2 adults and 5 kids in the S and X.

0-60 times:

Model S P100 -- 2.3s

Model X P100 - 2.8s.

Model 3 "Sport" - 3.2s

Bugatti Chiron 2.3s

Ferrari LaFerrari FXX 2.4s

Koenigsegg One:1, 2017 911 Turbo S, McLaren P1 GTR -2.5s

Ferrari Enzo - 2.8s

Ferrari 812 Superfast - 2.8s

2018 R8 big engine - 3.2s

https://www.zeroto60times.com/fastes...-60-mph-times/

2019 ECQ 4.9s

i8 4.0s
The difference though is you don't get 2s all day. As you lose charge you lose burst. And you'll be dead on the side of the road if you travel away from the interstate system in most of the country. There just aren't that many charging stations to make them as convenient as a hybrid or conventional car.

And some people love the sound of internal combustion. The whir of a golf cart just doesn't do it.
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Old 19 October 2018, 09:03 PM   #137
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Late to the discussion but I have always said that Tesla is the modern day Tucker. Nothing has changed in my opinion and I only want a gasoline engine no electric.
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Old 20 October 2018, 03:04 AM   #138
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Drive one.
Everyone is talking about all of these older car companies jumping into electric. They don't do 0-60 in 2 seconds. It is really hard to buy a 2s car, and they are actually usable as transportation. You can fit 2 adults and 5 kids in the S and X.
Yawn. For how long can you do that? What about tire wear, and how about the possible accidents in doing that?

Too bad the auto-pilot is killing owners. How about working on that?
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Old 20 October 2018, 03:13 AM   #139
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The difference though is you don't get 2s all day. As you lose charge you lose burst. And you'll be dead on the side of the road if you travel away from the interstate system in most of the country. There just aren't that many charging stations to make them as convenient as a hybrid or conventional car.

And some people love the sound of internal combustion. The whir of a golf cart just doesn't do it.
Not saying you are wrong just adding some additional data points.

My main argument is that Tesla should have a place in automotive lore and in the hearts of enthusiasts, because they packaged amazing usable acceleration, that wasn't available to the masses, in a car that could be used as a car as well and not just a weekend toy.
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Old 20 October 2018, 05:38 AM   #140
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Yawn. For how long can you do that? What about tire wear, and how about the possible accidents in doing that?

Too bad the auto-pilot is killing owners. How about working on that?
That is a different debate I guess. Should auto-pilot systems be used and should fast cars be sold?


My particular take is. I'm not sure autopilot has caused a statistically significant amount of deaths. I think Toyota unintended acceleration and GM faulty ignition switches (perhaps the Ford Explorer brigestone tire issues) have likely caused more deaths.

I like fast cars. I think they are fun, I like fun and therefore I think fast cars should be sold. If you start legislating fast cars you may hurt the economy and various manufactures raison d'être.

My Dad's 911 4S tires lasted about 12k miles, high performance tires wear at a faster rate. What if you have to accelerate to avoid an accident or merge in a safe manner? Perhaps acceleration can also protect you.

Auto pilot I could take it or leave it but I know we need to innovate to maintain the economy and this is an important area of innovation. I also sometimes wish the drivers around me were using auto-pilot or other systems. I feel like they could perhaps curtail overly aggressive driving behavior.
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Old 20 October 2018, 05:54 AM   #141
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Not saying you are wrong just adding some additional data points.

My main argument is that Tesla should have a place in automotive lore and in the hearts of enthusiasts, because they packaged amazing usable acceleration, that wasn't available to the masses, in a car that could be used as a car as well and not just a weekend toy.
Available at $60k plus, isnt really available to the masses. And its only a daily driver in certain markets.

Tesla will be in the lore alongside Delorean and other dreamers that that couldnt build an enduring company from their ideas. Though, I think if Delorean got a $5 billion government loan they might still be around.
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Old 20 October 2018, 06:20 AM   #142
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Available at $60k plus, isnt really available to the masses. And its only a daily driver in certain markets.

Tesla will be in the lore alongside Delorean and other dreamers that that couldnt build an enduring company from their ideas. Though, I think if Delorean got a $5 billion government loan they might still be around.
I agree it's not a solution for everyone but it is useful for people in the cities and on the coasts or for people who want to have fun on the weekends or for commuting. I am not arguing Tesla can or should supplant every other car on the road.

DeLorean was cool but other than building the basis of a time machine, or using SS (I believe) they didn't do anything new which is quite different than the transformational shift(s) Tesla ushered in. It's not just autopilot, or the speed which I like, the way Tesla's are sold, their update system, their inter-connectivity is all revolutionary. Tesla is going to do big things with big data and AI shortly.

From a business point of view, I think Tesla could easily make it as a small volume high-margin car builder. Their current issue is that they are trying to scale and change the world. They will need some "adult supervision". I think they should get a seasoned automotive executive to help them scale. From a business point of view, I think Ford should buy Tesla.

I agree that they will not replace the camry or prius. However, 65k for a car that does 3.2s to 60 and can seat 4 would have not been possible before Tesla offered it. 3.2s to 60 was hypercar territory not long ago.
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Old 20 October 2018, 06:22 AM   #143
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My Dad's 911 4S tires lasted about 12k miles, high performance tires wear at a faster rate. What if you have to accelerate to avoid an accident or merge in a safe manner? Perhaps acceleration can also protect you.
12K miles is fast wear?

I am not sure how anyone can justify the cost of a Tesla, any of them. The interior and materials are crap, they slapped a freakin iPad on the center console and on the 3, it looks like they just slapped it on the dashboard. Door handles, seats, dials/knobs/controls all feel like they came out of a Japanese mass produced factory. That's not gonna cut it at this price point for most who are actual car people. 50K for the 3? Porsche Taycan is going to wipe the floor with the P90/P100 and I am sure lower models will come to wipe out the rest, and from not only Porsche. Kudos to Tesla for starting this whole thing (even though I have zero interest in electric cars) but now its time for the big boys to come in and do it right.
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Old 20 October 2018, 06:33 AM   #144
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I agree it's not a solution for everyone but it is useful for people in the cities and on the coasts or for people who want to have fun on the weekends or for commuting. I am not arguing Tesla can or should supplant every other car on the road.

DeLorean was cool but other than building the basis of a time machine, or using SS (I believe) they didn't do anything new which is quite different than the transformational shift(s) Tesla ushered in. It's not just autopilot, or the speed which I like, the way Tesla's are sold, their update system, their inter-connectivity is all revolutionary. Tesla is going to do big things with big data and AI shortly.

From a business point of view, I think Tesla could easily make it as a small volume high-margin car builder. Their current issue is that they are trying to scale and change the world. They will need some "adult supervision". I think they should get a seasoned automotive executive to help them scale. From a business point of view, I think Ford should buy Tesla.

I agree that they will not replace the camry or prius. However, 65k for a car that does 3.2s to 60 and can seat 4 would have not been possible before Tesla offered it. 3.2s to 60 was hypercar territory not long ago.
You can get Tesla-esque 0-60 times in a Dodge demon or hellcat for about the same price as a Tesla without losing the feel of a muscle car. Go fast, sound cool, buy gas anywhere.
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Old 20 October 2018, 06:37 AM   #145
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You can get Tesla-esque 0-60 times in a Dodge demon or hellcat for about the same price as a Tesla without losing the feel of a muscle car. Go fast, sound cool, buy gas anywhere.
I just wish they put a Hemi in the Wrangler Rubicon.

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12K miles is fast wear?

I am not sure how anyone can justify the cost of a Tesla, any of them. The interior and materials are crap, they slapped a freakin iPad on the center console and on the 3, it looks like they just slapped it on the dashboard. Door handles, seats, dials/knobs/controls all feel like they came out of a Japanese mass produced factory. That's not gonna cut it at this price point for most who are actual car people. 50K for the 3? Porsche Taycan is going to wipe the floor with the P90/P100 and I am sure lower models will come to wipe out the rest, and from not only Porsche. Kudos to Tesla for starting this whole thing (even though I have zero interest in electric cars) but now its time for the big boys to come in and do it right.
What do you think about the speed differences? A 100k Model S sprints to 60 in 2.3s, a 65k 3 in 3.2s the top of the line taycan right now looks like it will be released in 2020(?) and go 0-60 in 3.5s and that may be a range topping performance model in excess of $200k USD. The $1mm porsche 918 has the same 0-60 time as the P100D s...

To me I'm not sure I would spend 2x for less speed and better fit and finish and that is comparing a hypothetical 2020 model with a current model, with the momentum of innovation at Tesla the 2020 may be in the high 1s to 60 with better range than the current models. With that I am going to deep dive on this MBA paper.

Thank you for the fun discussion gentlemen.
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Old 20 October 2018, 06:44 AM   #146
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What do you think about the speed differences? A 100k Model S sprints to 60 in 2.3s, a 65k 3 in 3.2s the top of the line taycan right now looks like it will be released in 2020(?) and go 0-60 in 3.5s and that may be a range topping performance model in excess of $200k USD. The $1mm porsche 918 has the same 0-60 time as the P100D s...

To me I'm not sure I would spend 2x for less speed and better fit and finish and that is comparing a hypothetical 2020 model with a current model, with the momentum of innovation at Tesla the 2020 may be in the high 1s to 60 with better range than the current models. With that I am going to deep dive on this MBA paper.

Thank you for the fun discussion gentlemen.
You are rather caught up on 0-60, which I could frankly care less about. It can zoom stop light to stop light a couple of times but the interior is garbage and the quality overall is bad. That and it can barely keep itself on track, let alone at speed. I assure you Porsche will not have these types of issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZLGIs0H14

http://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/th...wful-track-car
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Old 29 October 2018, 01:54 AM   #147
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Seems the rumors of their death were greatly exaggerated: https://www.forbes.com/sites/enrique...out-tesla/amp/
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Old 29 October 2018, 02:38 AM   #148
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You are rather caught up on 0-60, which I could frankly care less about. It can zoom stop light to stop light a couple of times but the interior is garbage and the quality overall is bad. That and it can barely keep itself on track, let alone at speed. I assure you Porsche will not have these types of issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZLGIs0H14

http://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/th...wful-track-car
Yup, they are ugly, cheap and you could not give me one for free. No thanks to the electric garbage. Too much of a gear head to even consider a Tesla an automotive. Its a microwave oven with four scimpy rubber tires attached to it.
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Old 29 October 2018, 10:44 AM   #149
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Seems the rumors of their death were greatly exaggerated: https://www.forbes.com/sites/enrique...out-tesla/amp/
How much more funding are they speaking again to do cash burn rate?
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Old 29 October 2018, 11:22 AM   #150
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[QUOTE=V25V;9023557]You are rather caught up on 0-60, which I could frankly care less about. It can zoom stop light to stop light a couple of times but the interior is garbage and the quality overall is bad. That and it can barely keep itself on track, let alone at speed. I assure you Porsche will not have these types of issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZLGIs0H14

http://www.thedrive.com/news/5207/th...wful-track-car

you are arguing something not in evidence. it is unknown how a porsche taycan will do around the track. it may do worse if the constraint is battery tech related.
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