Submariner woes

[JB7]

I've not been on here for a while so don't know what's going on. I get that Rolex in their infinite wisdom have stopped steel sports watches from daring to be in a window in London for more than 2 years, nearly 3, but is there a point to it? The only point to it that I can see is that greedy ****s like Watchfinder are selling the 114060 for £7500GB, £2000 more than the last RRP new, for a second hand one. They're not known for their generosity at the best of times, but in all honesty, the want has subsided with me rather than got greater, which is a shame.

But I just wondered if this is a world wide thing, or just a UK and possibly Europe thing. And also, is this just a marketing ploy by some Giles in red braces at Rolex?

[The Libertine]

Model shortages and price gouging are not limited to the UK.

[JB7]

Ah, I wondered, thanks for that. But nearly 3 years?

[HRT]

No one knows for sure but it’s almost certainly not a deliberate attempt to shorten supply - it’s simply demand far outweighing supply

[THC]

Originally Posted by HRT

No one knows for sure but it’s almost certainly not a deliberate attempt to shorten supply - it’s simply demand far outweighing supply

I disagree with this whole heartedly

[Tools]

It's unlikely that Rolex has banned window displays. Dealers are certainly reluctant since the spate of window smashers in recent years.

Of course, they have to have product to display, so that will play a part.

[JB7]

No, not window reasons. They don't have them. They empty windows nightly anyway. Rolex in Bond St London said it's because the pound is lousy so tourists snap them all up, but that was over 2 years ago he said that, and still has not been sight of one Sub in nearly 3 years, anywhere in London. One dealer did admit that he thought there was some game play going on. Another said go to Europe on Eurostar and find one out there because there are some around, but not in the UK. If it is gameplay, then I don't know if it's clever or really stupid, because a large percentage of non-watch fans, will just give up after a few months, and go over the road and buy a Planet Ocean

[Shamorai]

From the window displays here you would think Rolex only made diamond bezel Datejust.

[steve099]

The cute blonde at the RSC said that Rolex was "restricting supply of SS models and they (the RSC) don't know why" when I asked last week.

She was manning the front desk so who knows what she really knows...

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by steve099

The cute blonde at the RSC said that Rolex was "restricting supply of SS models and they (the RSC) don't know why" when I asked last week.

She was manning the front desk so who knows what she really knows...

About as much as anyone, I would presume.

[Old Geezer]

It’s anyone’s guess what Rolex is doing or not doing. I think one thing we know is that they are selling whatever number of SS models they produce.
Judging by the billboards I’m seeing along the highways there seems to be more advertisement of Milgauss, explorers and Air-Kings.

[JB7]

The worst kick back is unscrupulous 'dealers' like Watchfinder taking the p*** out of clients by selling second hand 114060 at over 2K on top of new prices. Plus it's given them license to charge silly money for the older 14060. Not that I've any evidence that people are paying them what they're asking for, but that is their list price, and who knows, and if someone isn't an aficionado, they don't know what the RRP is and will probably think that's what they cost second hand.

Had this been a shortish 6 month to 1 year blip, you could forgive Rolex for it. But this is now ridiculous.

[tyler1980]

[MaxLondon]

I have been to various dealers during some work travels in Chicago (3), Tokyo (3) and Seoul (2) and not a single SS Sport / Professional in site!

Have been on a list in UK - London - for 6 months and nothing yet.
They seem to have the production capacity to manufacture so many date just ... but not the submariner.

There is nothing like having a queue outside a shop to keep sales up... maybe Rolex is trying the same.

Although in Tokyo second hand market I thought the prices were reasonable and the selection incredible...

[kwingy]

Honestly do business with WF as a last resort as everything they sell SS wise is completely inflated. The amount they offer on watches as well has gotten to an all time low as well.

[peterpl]

That is why people need to stop feeding the craziness and stop paying these crazy asking prices. All this fomo rubbish is just fueling the fire although I do see many coming to their senses now rather than paying ridiculous prices for watches.

We'll see in 6 - 12 months but to me the feeling has subdued alot since 6 months ago when it really was a frenzy. I have seen significant drops in prices for certain pieces like the BLRO, CHNR and even the Blue SkyD which used to sell for $20k is now moving below that.

Just dont buy from Watchfinder. They are truly taking advantage of all their clients.

[Amazing]

Originally Posted by kwingy

Honestly do business with WF as a last resort as everything they sell SS wise is completely inflated. The amount they offer on watches as well has gotten to an all time low as well.

Can confirm I had an obnoxiously low offer recently. Other greys in london offered over £1k more.

[mulgogy]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

awkward outburst of laughter followed by the awkward stares of coworkers... lmfao.

[JB7]

Originally Posted by MaxLondon

I have been to various dealers during some work travels in Chicago (3), Tokyo (3) and Seoul (2) and not a single SS Sport / Professional in site!

Have been on a list in UK - London - for 6 months and nothing yet.
They seem to have the production capacity to manufacture so many date just ... but not the submariner.

There is nothing like having a queue outside a shop to keep sales up... maybe Rolex is trying the same.

Although in Tokyo second hand market I thought the prices were reasonable and the selection incredible...

I was in Bond St last week, and there was a queue outside one of the clothes shops that went round the corner. I don't get that. But no queue at Rolex because they don't have the stock. I honestly heard someone screaming at a salesman in a North West London dealer about this very subject, Because I asked them when he'd left what he was shouting about, and it was the lack of the S/S Sports models. True story.

Originally Posted by kwingy

Honestly do business with WF as a last resort as everything they sell SS wise is completely inflated. The amount they offer on watches as well has gotten to an all time low as well.

I've not been impressed with their attitude on more than one occasion, so the chances of them getting one penny from me are very slim.

Originally Posted by peterpl

That is why people need to stop feeding the craziness and stop paying these crazy asking prices. All this fomo rubbish is just fueling the fire although I do see many coming to their senses now rather than paying ridiculous prices for watches.

We'll see in 6 - 12 months but to me the feeling has subdued alot since 6 months ago when it really was a frenzy. I have seen significant drops in prices for certain pieces like the BLRO, CHNR and even the Blue SkyD which used to sell for $20k is now moving below that.

Just dont buy from Watchfinder. They are truly taking advantage of all their clients.

I don't understand why people do, they charge more than anyone else, and even when they were in store and available at the £5500GB last spotted 114060 RRP, they were selling a few years old versions at barely £200 less. I've never been able to fathom how they get away with used prices like they do. And a difference of barely £50 between two models exactly the same, but several years apart.

Originally Posted by Amazing

Can confirm I had an obnoxiously low offer recently. Other greys in london offered over £1k more.

I am all for people making healthy profits, but there is a limit. What do we think they paid the owners of the 14060/114060 they now sell for 2K over retail? I'll wager they wouldn't have been offered much over 3K. Unlikely 4. And then sell at 7500. And it's bound to influence others. I asked why it was so much more, and the reply is 'Because you can't buy them anywhere else'. As if they're selling new BNIB!

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by JB7

The worst kick back is unscrupulous 'dealers' like Watchfinder taking the p*** out of clients by selling second hand 114060 at over 2K on top of new prices. Plus it's given them license to charge silly money for the older 14060. Not that I've any evidence that people are paying them what they're asking for, but that is their list price, and who knows, and if someone isn't an aficionado, they don't know what the RRP is and will probably think that's what they cost second hand.

Had this been a shortish 6 month to 1 year blip, you could forgive Rolex for it. But this is now ridiculous.

This clearly what the overall Rolex market wants as sales for all models are up regardless of the shortage.

Brands that have plenty of watches in stock and ready to wear are encountering disinterest, low sales, brand erosion. They just aren't special.

[rootbeer7]

I remember having to wait for the first sports model to be received around 20 years ago in London (it was a 16710, although I would have preferred a 16610. The Daytona was already around 5 years!). It took a couple of months.
Moving to now, the relative cost of these 'luxury' items is rather small and the amount of people internationally who not only can afford them and are travelling globally has risen. I have lost interest. I wear a Panerai which gives me great pleasure, not only because you rarely see another, but because I wanted it, looked for it and bought it. Paying a premium for a mass-market luxury good seems nuts to me. This takes nothing away from the quality of the watches though. Each to their own I guess.

[Quailhunter]

My guess is that allocation of Rolex watches has a lot to do with profit margin. Rolex can't manufacture an infinite number of watches so sends them to where the profit margin is the highest. Makes sense to me. If you were selling a product, especially a luxury product, getting the highest price also makes sense to me.

There are a lot of potential buyers to whom the difference between paying $10,000 and $15,000 for the same watch is a non-issue. If they want it, the price isn't meaningful.

[Gold Crown]

Rolex is like De Beers they artificially cause shortages to keep the prices inflated. Rolex is all about money and super high profits.

[214270Explorer]

When anyone says "Rolex is doing this . . . . ."

it is total B.S.

Rolex does not discuss their "business" with AD's or others.

But rumors make the world go 'round, don't they.

[SS Oyster]

It’s a positive feedback loop, which for anyone who has ever studied “controls” whether in engineering or economics, is a really bad thing that essentially means out of control.

Here is the positive loop - (1) inventory shortage, (2) demand not met, so frenzy to buy, (3) secondary prices rise, (4) the few that are bought at “list” are known to be worth more, so they flip them and get back in line to do it again, (5) business opportunity presents itself and gray market forms to take advantage, which (6) causes further shortage.

You can’t get a steel Rolex, so what do you do?
Option 1: you are lucky enough to get one from AD at MSRP, your options are to flip it and make a pile of money and try to get another at MSRP, or keep it and know you could have made a profit on it.
Option 2: you can’t wait, and you figure you are paying “market” so you buy from gray dealer over “sticker” and proudly wear your piece.
Option 3: you belly-ache over lack of inventory and high secondary market prices and opine over the reasons.

Until Rolex increases production of SS Professional watches, this will continue and only get worse with suction of people who don’t even care about watches getting into the profit game. As a matter of fact, this makes it worse because this “investor” can afford to buy up some less desirable inventory (likely at a discount due to volume) and sell them slightly below retail (breaking even on TT DJ as an example) in order to get the sports SS models (70:30 rule), and thus suck up the limited quantity SS models further. Big profit on 30% and break even on 70% lower demand models. If they get big, they can shift those 70% around to markets that desire them, like Asia.

This is called supply and demand.

As for the reasons, I don’t buy into Rolex wanting to manipulate the market. They could sell everything they build.

Maybe Rolex is switching something in their manufacturing, like shifting to new 904L stamping machines, or shifting to new movements. Either way, if they cannot keep up with demand, this trend will continue.

What is interesting is why Rolex doesn’t follow economics 101, which says that when demand outpaces supply, raise your prices until they match. This might be the next step, unless the supply reason is known (only to Rolex) to be temporary, which takes me back to the penultimate paragraph above.


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[JB7]

As discussed, the sharks at WF are selling second hand ND Sub for £7500.

The last known recorded RRP in the UK went up from £5000 to £5500 for the 114060. But as stated, not seen for nearly 3 years in London.

Out of interest, to those of you with your name down on the waiting list for the next available No Date Sub, what is the price you are being quoted, the genuine RRP now?

Thanks for all your very informative and helpful replies, by the way

[Rolex addict]

AD's are getting SS models. They are just being very selective on who gets them. Recently, I've been in several that had some of the very popular models like the Hulk and Batman.

[JB7]

In the UK? They’re moaning more than I am. Even their main shop in Bond St. And local London dealers can’t get a look in

[JB7]

1 year to 2 years wait after a scan over the weekend for the ND. 90% of the stores said their lists are closed, and won't accept anyone else now.

I don't see an end to this. I also don't believe production has doubled and they just can't keep up with demand as stated by boutique. Why did demand become so much higher than it was 2.5 years ago when you could see the Sub Date/ND in every local jeweller's window in Greater London quite regularly.

[Matty22]

Did you manage to put your name down anywhere. I’m in London and have the same issue.