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Old 14 June 2018, 03:05 PM   #31
MinMay
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Wow, this is a new one.

It all lies on the seller's responsibility to make the claim, refund, etc. I feel someone from UPS tempered with it. Seller needs to refund you and he needs to deal with UPS himself. It's not your problem. You should examine the box closely...for any sign of re-taping, etc.

And it was NOT smart to let the UPS package the watch. I'm pretty sure he knew it was a watch. It's probably best to notify Rolex HQ the serial number. And post the serial number online somewhere so people can search for it.

BUT, the package did arrived to you so now the question is....who's telling the truth?

Another example why selling high end watch can be stressful.



Good luck.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:15 PM   #32
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Sorry to hear about this. Do your best to get your money back from UPS.

Best of Luck!
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:16 PM   #33
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Seems Parcel Pro is the best option to ship high value items like watches and jewelry. I would clarify that the watch was adequately insured with the appropriate service.

Seems prudent these days to check contents of box in front of a UPS employee. That way the claim can't be denied after its been signed for and in recipients possession.

To OP, best of luck getting a resolution. Cautionary tale for us all.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:18 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast View Post
Right now it's either him, you or a third party at fault, and while it's the seller's responsibility to get the watch into your hands after payment, it's his word against yours. Good luck. Hopefully the seller will get organised with the insurance and a refund.
You bring up an interesting/valid point. While it seems that the OP is being honest/truthful about this matter, the fact is that buyer scams are just as plausible/possible as seller scams.
Not saying that's the case here at all, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time the old "I got an empty box!" scam was run.

Again, so far it sounds like the OP is being truthful, but just goes to show how "messy" these situations can become.
The mantra around here is always "buy the seller" but I think there should also be some weight given to "sell the buyer" as well.
This is especially pertinent if/when accepting forms of payment other than a bank wire. Just my $0.02...

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Old 14 June 2018, 03:19 PM   #35
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Sorry to hear about this. Do your best to get your money back from UPS.

Best of Luck!
Buyer has no relationship to UPS...It's seller responsibility to deal with UPS.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:21 PM   #36
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you bring up an interesting/valid point. While it seems that the op is being honest/truthful about this matter, the fact is that buyer scams are just as plausible/possible as seller scams.
Not saying that's the case here at all, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time the old "i got an empty box!" scam was run.

Again, so far it sounds like the op is being truthful, but just goes to show how "messy" these situations can become.
The mantra around here is always "buy the seller" but i think there should also be some weight given to "sell the buyer" as well.
This is especially pertinent if/when accepting forms of payment other than a bank wire. Just my $0.02...

+1 Can you imagine more buyers making such claim "I got an empty box?"
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:22 PM   #37
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Hey all,

Thanks for all the responses--I really appreciate all the help and support you all have offered. I've gone ahead and called the seller and formally requested a refund (also gave this to him in writing over email). He was not willing to do so, despite me explaining that insurance is between him and UPS, and it appears that we may have to escalate this to a legal issue as he wants to get his lawyer involved.

I may have to do this too despite the fact that a watch of this value is something that should be settled in small claims court. However, I'm quite certain that the law is on my side (Consumer Protection Laws, FTC regulations, etc.) and as many of you have pointed out, I should not be responsible as it is the seller's duty to ensure the buyer receives the purchased item. The transaction was also made with an invoice declaring the value of the item and we have all details of the deal in writing, so I believe on that front everything is clear.

Wishing this wasn't such a messy situation but we are where we are. Please let me know if you have any other advice that would help!
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:28 PM   #38
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Good luck helo008. I have a feeling seller is not going to refund 9K so easily. It's an unfortunate situation. Make sure you take pictures and save all evidence for the court.

I think Seller screwed up big time...
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:31 PM   #39
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Unfortunately in this particular instance the seller is within his rights not to provide a refund until the UPS claim process has been completed.

OP would have signed for the package and that in effect releases responsibility of seller and UPS. I think a lawyer is your best option. Do you have a witness when box was opened who can support your claim the watch was missing?
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:31 PM   #40
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I would bet that the watch never made it out of the UPS store where it was packaged... overnight deliveries move fast... the most likely place the watch had the time/opporunity to sit and be picked through was at the UPS store.. also, if the clerk packaged it, he was well aware of the contents...
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:34 PM   #41
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You bring up an interesting/valid point. While it seems that the OP is being honest/truthful about this matter, the fact is that buyer scams are just as plausible/possible as seller scams.
Not saying that's the case here at all, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time the old "I got an empty box!" scam was run.

Again, so far it sounds like the OP is being truthful, but just goes to show how "messy" these situations can become.
The mantra around here is always "buy the seller" but I think there should also be some weight given to "sell the buyer" as well.
This is especially pertinent if/when accepting forms of payment other than a bank wire. Just my $0.02...

Totally see what you're getting at and understand the perspective entirely.

All I can say is that the situation is such that I waited with my housemate for the watch to arrive this morning until 11am (despite scheduled delivery at 10:30am) so I could receive it in person, but had to send him off to the airport.

I received notice it arrived at the office of my building at 11:29am, which is a full glass area run by two employees that have been working there for years and receive dozens of packages a day, so I doubt they tampered with it.

I came home and picked it up at 12:18pm when I returned from the airport. Shot a message with the picture of the empty contents at 12:21pm to the seller, and called him 3 times within the next 50 minutes before he picked up and confirmed he had indeed not forgotten to pack the watch, at which point I promptly called the local PD, which had an officer there within 20 minutes.

After this happened I documented all of this in case it needed to be used as evidence later on. This is my second Rolex and I purchased it to celebrate my business hitting a milestone, and I had even been in talks with the dealer of my previous Rolex, an Explorer II, to sell my old one back to fund this purchase as it was supposed to be a "trade up".

I then came on TRF to seek some help and advice on this matter. All I can say is that everything I've said is entirely truthful, and that I would never do something like this. It hurts me to see that the fruit of my hard work has pretty much been spent on an empty box.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:37 PM   #42
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Unfortunately in this particular instance the seller is within his rights not to provide a refund until the UPS claim process has been completed.

OP would have signed for the package and that in effect releases responsibility of seller and UPS. I think a lawyer is your best option. Do you have a witness when box was opened who can support your claim the watch was missing?
But just because I received the package doesn't mean it hasn't been tampered with. In this case, the office at my building signed for the package, so I wasn't even physically there to receive it.

Unfortunately, I had to bring it back up to my place to grab a box cutter. I actually innocently believed he had maybe forgotten to pack it for the first hour, and that he maybe left it in another box or something.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:40 PM   #43
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don't waste time...bring him to court.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:41 PM   #44
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I had this happen to me once-as a seller. Years ago in college I played Magic: The Gathering (card game). I had a ton of expensive and rare cards. I sold them on eBay. Packaged and took them to the UPS Store to ship. I was insuring this package for like $4k and the guy asked me what was in there (they always do). I said Magic cards. He said “oh, yeah my son is into that and knows a lot about them” and started asking a ton of uestions. I think u a making conversation.

Couple days go by. The buyer emails me that he got the box and literally all ththe good cards were missing. All the rest were in there. He was super mad. I knew immediately what had happened since inside the box all the “good” cards were in sleeves on top. The owner had called his son, told him what was inside, opened the box and just cherry picked and sealed it back up.

Filed a claim with UPS. Denied. Lost thousands.

NEVER go to a UPS Store. They are NOT UPS and are basically independently operated. In other words, you’re f’d.

Sorry to hear this for both parties.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:41 PM   #45
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don't waste time...bring him to court.
Meeting with lawyer tomorrow AM. Thank you for the support.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:50 PM   #46
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Meeting with lawyer tomorrow AM. Thank you for the support.
Get the FBI Crime department involved too by filing a claim.

https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
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Old 14 June 2018, 04:05 PM   #47
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But just because I received the package doesn't mean it hasn't been tampered with. In this case, the office at my building signed for the package, so I wasn't even physically there to receive it.

Unfortunately, I had to bring it back up to my place to grab a box cutter. I actually innocently believed he had maybe forgotten to pack it for the first hour, and that he maybe left it in another box or something.
Insurance ends when the package is signed for.
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Old 14 June 2018, 04:10 PM   #48
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I had this happen to me once-as a seller. Years ago in college I played Magic: The Gathering (card game). I had a ton of expensive and rare cards. I sold them on eBay. Packaged and took them to the UPS Store to ship. I was insuring this package for like $4k and the guy asked me what was in there (they always do). I said Magic cards. He said “oh, yeah my son is into that and knows a lot about them” and started asking a ton of uestions. I think u a making conversation.

Couple days go by. The buyer emails me that he got the box and literally all ththe good cards were missing. All the rest were in there. He was super mad. I knew immediately what had happened since inside the box all the “good” cards were in sleeves on top. The owner had called his son, told him what was inside, opened the box and just cherry picked and sealed it back up.

Filed a claim with UPS. Denied. Lost thousands.

NEVER go to a UPS Store. They are NOT UPS and are basically independently operated. In other words, you’re f’d.

Sorry to hear this for both parties.
I quit using UPS years ago. They are the worst at paying out on claims. Read one online claim report that an individual filed where the item was damaged and UPS denied the claim. The seller was furious because UPS packaged the box for him. He never did get his claim resolved.

The are plenty of postings on the internet regarding denied claims from dissatisfied UPS customers.

Here are a couple and there are many others.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=295025

https://www.google.com/search?q=does...nt=firefox-b-1
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Old 14 June 2018, 04:20 PM   #49
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The box was packaged and shipped at the UPS store. The seller mentioned that he brought the box packaged in the white paper sleeve that says OYSTER S SAP 39137 (with no other obvious labelling) and watched the employees box and seal it. Unfortunately, it was not sealed with tamper-proof tape, but when the local police officer came by to take my statement he noticed that one side of the box was double/triple taped, making it possibly it was tampered with?

On the other hand, it doesn't sound like it was opened to verify contents at the store...:(
Yeah, probably not the smartest thing to box it up at the UPS store counter. There are plenty of "opportunists" out there savvy enough to recognize a Rolex box sleeve. I would be looking closely at the first points of contact who were privy to the package contents (UPS counter workers). As for verifying the contents (to rule out a seller scam), I would think that the package weight at the counter could be verified, and compared to the weight of what you received (a GMT IIc weights almost exactly 5 oz.).
If the weights were different, that would be exculpatory the seller (or inculpatory if the weights were the same).

Also, if you haven't already, I'd follow up with PD to confirm that the report was filed and the SN was entered into the NCIC database (stolen article file).
That will flag it if it shows up at any pawn shops that use NCIC-check software...and most do, especially on big-ticket items like this.
You might even call the local pawn shops within a 10+ mile radius directly every couple days to see if any of them get a GMT IIC in.
Google the SN every couple days, and keep an eye out on eBay and Craigslist as well.

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Old 14 June 2018, 04:22 PM   #50
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The seller William21 has nothing to say?
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Old 14 June 2018, 04:30 PM   #51
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This makes me sick. Neither of you probably did anything wrong and look where you are.

It's probably not a bad idea to video the UPS store packaging your stuff up if you choose to go that route.

There was a thread years ago on a different forum where the guy tried to scam the seller and said he got a rock in the box. Fortunately the seller had recorded everything on video to debunk him and win the PayPal claim.
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Old 14 June 2018, 04:39 PM   #52
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I quit using UPS years ago. They are the worst at paying out on claims. Read one online claim report that an individual filed where the item was damaged and UPS denied the claim. The seller was furious because UPS packaged the box for him. He never did get his claim resolved.
+1000

And they are one of the most expensive to boot.
I've never had an issue with USPS Registered Mail. It's a bit slower, but the most secure shipping option I've found.
Watches (or anything else) can be insured up to $50k, and the chain-of-custody has no equal with the other common carriers, AFAIK.


YMMV...
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Old 14 June 2018, 05:09 PM   #53
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Terrible, I hope you and the seller sort this out soon. This kind of thing makes me happy that I am not buying or selling watches.
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Old 14 June 2018, 05:53 PM   #54
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Same thing happened with my shipments last year with ups. So this is my story and experiences. Hope it helps...

My worker shipped 5 packages out that day to my clients. 2 (highest values of 5) dropped off at UPS Store who knows us well, another 2 dropped off at FedEx who knows us well too, and last one dropped off at random UPS store. Why? Because I don't usually ship all packages out at one location.

Next day, 2 packages shipped by FedEx which were delivered safe and sound. Also the last package dropped off at random ups store which was delivered safe and sound as well. So lil concerned here about another 2 packages got delay which were dropped off at ups we know well... around after noon, 1st client in East Coast of one of those 2 packages called me and said there is no watch, just the box and watch boxes inside while the package still looks good from outside.. and an hour later 2nd client in West Coast called me and said the same thing with the same happen.... and until now I still don't know when and where those items got stolen.. at ups store, ups hub or at ups destination...?

Here are how I worked on it. Those 2 clients are my new clients so of course they definitely thought I may be a scammer at that moment. But first I tried to calm them down and showed them that the packages have full insurance and showed them that I'm working with insurance company and UPS to see what happened with the packages first. And I also guaranteed them that they will receive their full refunds within a few days after I hear back from insurance company and ups even the insurance company will take over 30 days for investigation and refunds to the sender... then next thing I needed my clients take a lot of the pics of the packages after they received and opened it. And also if they can tell me or estimate how the weight of the package when driver handed the package to them and do not throw anything from what they received. because the insurance company needed those packages in that exact condition send back to them for investigation. my worker kept the dropoff receipts of those 2 packages and took the pics of them before he shipped. Because on drop off receipt it will show what the weights of each package. So the package will be lighter if the item inside got stolen. And The tracking numbers will show the actual weight of package when driver scans it and hands it to the receiver. Then from there ups and insurance can know what happened with it... Another good thing helped me to get the cover from insurance that I always use brown paper tapes all around for packages. So when they received those packages back from my clients they could see someone cut the brown paper tape and tampered with clear tape over it. And of course I could not let my 2 clients hang there and wait 30 days for insurance decision. So one client understood and waited for me to find him another item or waited until we know the decision from insurance company. And If its not right, then both of us will find lawyer and give this case to lawyer to sue UPS. Another client (who became my regular client now) could not wait for another item or decision from insurance company, so I totally understood that and had to give him full refunds back. So in this case, the seller needs to deal with shipping company and insurance company if the item got stolen within the shipment like my case. But of course it needs lil helps from buyer as working with seller and be patient...

Also another thing that do not let ups or FedEx worker pack up your valuable package or let them know what inside the package. Especially with UPS since UPS is franchise so they can not really know much about their workers like Fedex.
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Old 14 June 2018, 06:04 PM   #55
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Hello TRF--

Yes, I am the seller in this transaction. I recently listed my Rolex GMT Master II for sale after purchasing it in 2016 from a prominent seller on TRF. Helo008 and I exchanged several correspondences and spoke over the phone. Although he had not been on TRF for very long and had 0 posts previously, I felt comfortable after verifying his employment/educational status and identity. To be honest, I've participated in several transactions (primarily in person and via eBay) and this was my first transaction as seller on TRF.

The transaction moved forward and he processed a direct bank wire very quickly (thus, alleviating some concerns there). I utilized my local UPS Store and had them insure it for the watch's value. The counter staff did not see the watch but confirmed its make/model upon receipt. When I asked the franchisee owner if that was routine, she said that it was and is required to insure that amount. The box was taped, packaged and scanned on the spot. The weight was 1 lbs. 15.5 oz. I sent the tracking number immediately.

Unfortunately, after he mentioned that he would have his apartment building staff sign for it in case he wasn't there, I offered to meet halfway in person (i.e. Modesto). He did not think it was necessary and we agreed to move forward with shipping it. When I was contacted with images and a phone call that the watch was missing, I suggested that he contact local authorities ASAP (which he did). In fact, before I had a chance to speak with him and the Officer on the case, I contacted Emeryville Police Department directly myself, not knowing the Buyer personally and unsure if this could be fraudulent on that end. Shortly after that, I was able to jump on the phone with him and the officer assigned to the case. I subsequently filed a report with my local police department as well a claim with UPS.

I've maintained contact with him and am engaging UPS to investigate this immediately. After receiving advice from his attorney, he requested a full refund. I intend to let the process and investigation play out (both through PD for stolen property as well as UPS). I have also enlisted the services of an attorney as well. I will say, he has offered to be patient as the UPS claims process plays out, so that is greatly appreciated.

I am really hopeful that everything works out and UPS is on the hook. I probably won't engage back and forth beyond this point, but I appreciate the comments, suggestions, and empathy shared by TRF. I also posted a thread in case anyone has had any questionable experiences with the buyer in the past (hate to do it, but you just don't know). It's a very upsetting situation for me as it is for him.
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Old 14 June 2018, 06:53 PM   #56
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Meeting with lawyer tomorrow AM. Thank you for the support.
Sorry but you have no case. Don’t know what you’re expecting. You could just as easily be scamming the seller, as he could be scamming you or the package was stolen by a 3rd party. No way this would be decided in your favor in court, it’s all his word against yours. Also, IMO, that’s sort of a silly way to go about things anyways, as all you’re doing is pissing off the guy who’s trying to get the refund for you as quick as possible.

If this was Paypal, sure they’d find in your favor and you’d win. In an actual court of law? Absolutely not. An entire waste of money if you ask me.
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Old 14 June 2018, 06:58 PM   #57
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But just because I received the package doesn't mean it hasn't been tampered with. In this case, the office at my building signed for the package, so I wasn't even physically there to receive it.

Unfortunately, I had to bring it back up to my place to grab a box cutter. I actually innocently believed he had maybe forgotten to pack it for the first hour, and that he maybe left it in another box or something.
And now you have additional people in the mix. Your apartment staff. They could have stolen it, UPS employees could have stolen it, the list goes on.


I’ve sold thousands of items, and on a non PayPal transaction, there is absolutely no way I would refund your money out of pocket on this, just being honest. If I knew I put the watch in the box, i would not take a $9k loss based on a stranger’s word. If UPS paid out the claim, of course I would then refund, but not until that point. I am completely with the seller on this.
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Old 14 June 2018, 07:11 PM   #58
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don't waste time...bring him to court.
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Wow, this is a new one.

It all lies on the seller's responsibility to make the claim, refund, etc. I feel someone from UPS tempered with it. Seller needs to refund you and he needs to deal with UPS himself. It's not your problem. You should examine the box closely...for any sign of re-taping, etc.

And it was NOT smart to let the UPS package the watch. I'm pretty sure he knew it was a watch. It's probably best to notify Rolex HQ the serial number. And post the serial number online somewhere so people can search for it.

BUT, the package did arrived to you so now the question is....who's telling the truth?

Another example why selling high end watch can be stressful.



Good luck.
No offense but you give some pretty horrible advice.

As you pointed out, who’s telling the truth? That’s silly to make your first claim that the seller should immediately refund a potential scammer so willingly. Especially when the seller has been a member here for 8 years. This entire situation looks very fishy to me, especially when paired with the fact that the seller was willing to drive and meet the seller only 90 mins away, yet buyer refuses that and wanted shipment?

Some of you guys come across just like ebay’s Resolution department and defaulting to defending a buyer without looking at the entire situation and all facts presented.





**OP: With all that being said, I’m not saying you’re lying, just giving another side to this equation. Both parties here are TRF members at the end of the day, and the seller has in no way tried to disappear.
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Old 14 June 2018, 07:20 PM   #59
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Sorry but you have no case. Don’t know what you’re expecting. You could just as easily be scamming the seller, as he could be scamming you or the package was stolen by a 3rd party. No way this would be decided in your favor in court, it’s all his word against yours. Also, IMO, that’s sort of a silly way to go about things anyways, as all you’re doing is pissing off the guy who’s trying to get the refund for you as quick as possible.

If this was Paypal, sure they’d find in your favor and you’d win. In an actual court of law? Absolutely not. An entire waste of money if you ask me.
He has rights in the transaction, and a lawyer will ensure they are protected. He has a case, whether he prevails is yet to be seen. But your opinion is whack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmash View Post
And now you have additional people in the mix. Your apartment staff. They could have stolen it, UPS employees could have stolen it, the list goes on.


I’ve sold thousands of items, and on a non PayPal transaction, there is absolutely no way I would refund your money out of pocket on this, just being honest. If I knew I put the watch in the box, i would not take a $9k loss based on a stranger’s word. If UPS paid out the claim, of course I would then refund, but not until that’s point. I am completely with the seller on this.

Good to know. I will never do business with someone who would make a blanket statement like this. Read Takuya's post above. That's the correct answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmash View Post
No offense but you give some pretty horrible advice.

As you pointed out, who’s telling the truth? That’s silly to make your first claim that the seller should immediately refund a potential scammer so willingly. Especially when the seller has been a member here for 8 years. This entire situation looks very fishy to me, especially when paired with the fact that the seller was willing to drive and meet the seller only 90 mins away, yet buyer refuses that and wanted shipment?

Some of you guys come across just like ebay’s Resolution department
and defaulting to defending a buyer without looking at the entire situation and all facts presented.


With all that being said, I’m not saying you’re lying OP, just giving another side to this equation.
How the seller responds when something goes wrong defines their character. It's customary for the best sellers to refund once they know there wasn't a scam. The fact that the seller confirmed that the buyer already had the cops on scene is a pretty good clue that the buyer isn't scamming the seller.
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Old 14 June 2018, 07:26 PM   #60
dmash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdullah71601 View Post
He has rights in the transaction, and a lawyer will ensure they are protected. He has a case, whether he prevails is yet to be seen. But your opinion is whack.


Good to know. I will never do business with someone who would make a blanket statement like this. Read Takuya's post above. That's the correct answer.


How the seller responds when something goes wrong defines their character. It's customary for the best sellers to refund once they know there wasn't a scam. The fact that the seller confirmed that the buyer already had the cops on scene is a pretty good clue that the buyer isn't scamming the seller.


Lol sure bud.

point 1- of course he has rights, my point still stands that absolutely no way he's winning this in court. That's pretty much just a fact. That's not a 'whack' opinion, that's just how the law works. no judge is going to award a $9000 case to a buyer who claims he didn't receive a watch, after the seller sent, it shows the appropriate weight, and has touched probably 100 pairs of hands since then.

point 2- you're comparing a high volume dealer to a private individual who might sell one watch a year. A $9000 loss to an individual making $50,000 a year is a completely different story than a business. or do you not comprehend that difference? he didn't purchase from Takuya or DavidSW, he purchased from a normal guy. Do you think it's easy for somebody to just cough up $9k out of pocket, or pay out $9k after insurance claim is made? This is the real world, everybody doesn't have villas and yachts, that could be a HUGE amount to the seller, who perhaps was selling the watch and was in a bind. and quite frankly, i'm completely okay with you never purchasing anything from me, as you come across as somebody who is difficult to deal with.

point 3- how will the seller 'know' there wasn't a scam? Filing a police report means absolutely nothing to a scammer, and most high dollar Paypal scams require this nowadays anyways. This in absolutely no way deters a potential scammer. Do you have experience with 'empty box' or 'incorrect item' claims against you as a seller? I've done a ton of volume in the past, and I have plenty of experiences with this.


Your entire post honestly reiterates my point. You're defaulting to defending a buyer, who you have absolutely no idea is actually scamming the seller.
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