Gray Market Prices

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I'm getting too old for this forum.

Nah you have that youthful strap on it

Originally Posted by CamSLC

I wonder how this whole perception would change if the AD was also involved.



For instance if you bought a 918 from the local porsche dealer, then turned it back into the same dealer on consignment after the waiting period. They sell it on the open market and collect a 10% consignment fee (dealer realizing 6 figure commission). Meanwhile you're able to skip the line and get any GT's, R's, and get another 918 at MSRP. Potentially keeping or selling as many as you want, after the waiting period.



Opposed to this AD, selling a 5740. Client realizing all the upside. Regardless of HSWA/Patek Philippe SA's internal policy.

That’s what ADs want. I know a big name dealer does that all day.

[Mbbgysam]

Originally Posted by martinr

Can you imagine any other business that has this insane ridiculous no flipping rule? Go to Starbucks buy the last croissant and the guy in line in back of you says I’ll give you double what you paid for it. Starbucks then tells you we aren’t going to let you buy another croissant or muffin ever. And to respond to Russell’s last post, using the word intention as in no intention to sell is crazy also, who decides what someone’s intention is, the intention police.

The only example that comes to mind is the most recent Ford GT. Ford sued at least one owner (John Cena) who tried to flip it within the first two years.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by dsk28

Jokes aside, I too have flipped watches due to boredom and to make way for new pieces. Who decides which pieces we are allowed or not to move?

I have had a watch* for a few weeks and decided that it wasn't to my liking (despite drooling over this piece for months) and ended up flipping it within a month. Was I in the wrong? Would I get blacklisted by PP and their AD if this was a 5711/5712?

*AP Schumacher Ti

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It’s your watch, do what you want with it.
However, watch out for Ichi, he lives to police flippers.
He may call Patek and take your first born child.

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by superdog

I prefer SAVAGE.

I wish we had an emoticon for that.

Be great if my avatar is that lol





So nice to see everyone getting along.

[martinr]

Originally Posted by Mbbgysam

The only example that comes to mind is the most recent Ford GT. Ford sued at least one owner (John Cena) who tried to flip it within the first two years.

And what’s interesting about that case is Ford is suing him because he supposedly had a written agreement with them not to flip, but now he’s saying the agreement wasn’t with Ford, his purchase agreement was with the dealership and the dealership didn’t include an anti flip clause. If Patek and the AD selling the watch had an anti flip clause and other qualifications like Ford says they had they could probably enforce it. But if they vetted buyers and only sold to social media influencers or actors that promised to show off the watch in their next starring role etc. or musicians like Cardi B would it hurt their reputation or help it. It would be off putting to me to say the least.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by martinr

Can you imagine any other business that has this insane ridiculous no flipping rule? Go to Starbucks buy the last croissant and the guy in line in back of you says I’ll give you double what you paid for it. Starbucks then tells you we aren’t going to let you buy another croissant or muffin ever. And to respond to Russell’s last post, using the word intention as in no intention to sell is crazy also, who decides what someone’s intention is, the intention police.

I think you have completely missed the point, if someone buys the piece and it is ‘their’ prior intention to sell the piece at a profit instantly without wearing it and if possible without unboxing it then they are a flipper.

[Bearxj86]

2 points:

1) My AD took my papers for my 5711 for 1 year, if ADs wanted to minimize flipping they would do that.

2) I too have fought against V25V on 5164 and on pricing no less, alas my troll power (or market knowledge) was insufficient. No hard feelings though he is who he is and I respect his troll power (or market knowledge). He definitely destroyed my self-esteem and I guess my credibility too? :)
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...highlight=5164

[martinr]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I think you have completely missed the point, if someone buys the piece and it is ‘their’ prior intention to sell the piece at a profit instantly without wearing it and if possible without unboxing it then they are a flipper.

Agreed. But I don’t have a problem with someone doing just that. And I’m not saying you need to agree with me either. For example if an AD told me they would have to keep the certificate of authenticity for a year or I couldn’t buy the watch from them I’d say ok I’m not buying. You might say ok I’ll take it. My opinion is it’s my property to do what I want with when I want. Apparently some people are willing to give up that right to get a watch.

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by martinr

Agreed. But I don’t have a problem with someone doing just that. And I’m not saying you need to agree with me either. For example if an AD told me they would have to keep the certificate of authenticity for a year or I couldn’t buy the watch from them I’d say ok I’m not buying. You might say ok I’ll take it. My opinion is it’s my property to do what I want with when I want. Apparently some people are willing to give up that right to get a watch.

You can still flip the watch - just harder. I've had dealers offer BNIB Pateks to me but papers not for a year. They often know the seller (a respectable collector) and reputations matter alot.

One of the biggest issues with these watches you don't actually get to try them on first or spend time around them since they are so rare (I myself have not seen a 5711 in the wild outside of when I met with Brian from Boxertime f2f once). So what happens is even the most well-intention-ed collector ends up flipping cos they think they will like the watch and end up not liking it enough. These watches also cost an arm and a leg whether at retail or otherwise. Most people don't have $30k that they can have sitting around in a watch they like but don't love. I mean $30k can get you 3 modern steel rolexes.

Instagram and social media hype up some of these watches so much that social proof plays such a big piece for some people in a purchasing decision. Recently I've been joking to my wife that my watch made Kevin O'Leary cry, pretty fun stuff.

It is pretty well documented that first time Nautilus owners that have previously worn Rolex initially feel that the Nautilus is a bit "weak" or flimsy, I myself took a few weeks to fall in love. But once I fell..man I fell hard.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

2 points:

1) My AD took my papers for my 5711 for 1 year, if ADs wanted to minimize flipping they would do that.

2) I too have fought against V25V on 5164 and on pricing no less, alas my troll power (or market knowledge) was insufficient. No hard feelings though he is who he is and I respect his troll power (or market knowledge). He definitely destroyed my self-esteem and I guess my credibility too? :)
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...highlight=5164

Love you, Bear.


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[martinr]

bearxj86 once you have the watch in your possession it’s yours regardless of whether you have the certificate or not. So let’s say I have money to burn, I get an AD to sell me a 5711 and he keeps the certificate. Then, I go home and make a video of myself smashing the watch with a sledgehammer and tossing it in the trash and then tell the AD to stick the certificate where the sun don’t shine. Post it on YouTube. In my opinion that scenario is no more right or wrong than flipping immediately with no intention of wearing. Some people might get a little bent out of shape over it but it’s a inanimate object and nobody is really hurt.

[danestaff]

Mmmm this is a tricky situation,
. Granted u can all flip,

but weather u will get 1st choice on new peices, I doubt it if your Ads find out

If u do flip so quick it's a shame on all genuine people wanting those watches to wear and cherish (hopefully)


Obviously if u do flip a quick couple of bucks makes u happy

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[danestaff]

Originally Posted by superdog

You couldn’t just let it go? You had to continue making comments.

What’s actually comical is that you call someone else soft.

You take pot shots all the time. You get called out and it just eats at you. You just can’t let it go. Talk about soft. It’s an Internet forum. And your only getting what you dish out. Yet it appears you can’t even see that.

This’ll likely get closed. Likely it should. And too bad too. All because you got called out and got a taste of what you call “speaking your mind”.

Don't go calling people out they don't like it lol

I done it and peole stick up for friends even tho they are in the wrong,

Don't let the trolls get u



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[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by Chadridv

“Had”?

Originally Posted by Dj_masse

Damnnnnnnn


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Wow!!! Exactly!!!

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by BillA

I have bought 2 PPs from 2 different AD’s and flipped them both. Did not have to list them on the forum because 2 of the TS bought them same day in fact. Happy to say I made a good buck. And happy to say I probably made another PP enthusiast very happy because they did not mind paying a premium. It is not my business what others do with their money.

I hope you do not report me to Patek, would not want to be tar and feathered

I must admit this thread is very funny.

Glad you are happy scalping.

My bad, I miss those 2 transactions. Or did I?

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Russell996

You did the right thing, it very much helped the AD otherwise serious issues for them.

Thanks Russell.

I also see a possibility that I may get future hot release earlier when there are less competitors. It's a zero-sum game after all. Though the banned individual may still "exist" in another form, it does make it more difficult for him/her. That's the "business" perspective from a regular customer like me.

[Fat_ninja]

There is really no coming back for this thread...

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

There is really no coming back for this thread...

Now you are just instigating. You savage.

It’s actually produced some pretty good dialogue.

[martinr]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Thanks Russell.



I also see a possibility that I may get future hot release earlier when there are less competitors. It's a zero-sum game after all. Though the banned individual may still "exist" in another form, it does make it more difficult for him/her. That's the "business" perspective from a regular customer like me.

IMG_8939.jpg



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[GB-man]

I loathe nearly everything about this hobby these days.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Thanks Russell.

I also see a possibility that I may get future hot release earlier when there are less competitors. It's a zero-sum game after all. Though the banned individual may still "exist" in another form, it does make it more difficult for him/her. That's the "business" perspective from a regular customer like me.

Personally I wouldn’t take this view, my concern if I saw this and it was my AD would be to protect the AD. Business is hard enough these days so alerting them before Patek UK approaches them would be the only reason to make the call.

[RussW]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Personally I wouldn’t take this view, my concern if I saw this and it was my AD would be to protect the AD. Business is hard enough these days so alerting them before Patek UK approaches them would be the only reason to make the call.

The way I read his post was that he alerted Patek to the sale, not that he was trying to protect the AD. The exact opposite was my take from this.

[Analysing You]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Personally I wouldn’t take this view, my concern if I saw this and it was my AD would be to protect the AD. Business is hard enough these days so alerting them before Patek UK approaches them would be the only reason to make the call.

Russel,

I agree with you on this. As you say business is hard enough as it is, particularly now more than ever (because there are so many flippers out there who deceive AD’s to obtain sought after pieces). I would approach the AD and have a word with them discreetly, I’m sure they would appreciate it and in turn perhaps value you as a client even more.


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[danestaff]

Originally Posted by Analysing You

Russel,

I agree with you on this. As you say business is hard enough as it is, particularly now more than ever (because there are so many flippers out there who deceive AD’s to obtain sought after pieces). I would approach the AD and have a word with them discreetly, I’m sure they would appreciate it and in turn perhaps value you as a client even more.


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Agreed, and they actually do,


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[dlhussain]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I think you have completely missed the point, if someone buys the piece and it is ‘their’ prior intention to sell the piece at a profit instantly without wearing it and if possible without unboxing it then they are a flipper.

That's capitalism... live by the sword, die by the sword

[dlhussain]

Originally Posted by Analysing You

Russel,

I agree with you on this. As you say business is hard enough as it is, particularly now more than ever (because there are so many flippers out there who deceive AD’s to obtain sought after pieces). I would approach the AD and have a word with them discreetly, I’m sure they would appreciate it and in turn perhaps value you as a client even more.


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No one values a rat.... good or bad intentions

[Fat_ninja]

Originally Posted by superdog

Now you are just instigating. You savage.

It’s actually produced some pretty good dialogue.

Lol. I try

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by RussW

The way I read his post was that he alerted Patek to the sale, not that he was trying to protect the AD. The exact opposite was my take from this.

I believe you are correct, hence the clarification on my personal view of when and why I would potentially feel empowered to speak to my AD and alert them a situation.

[justdate]

How about this.. flippers and grey market dealers are actually doing a good thing and improve the market significantly! They help to correct the distorted market created by watch companies under pricing their goods.

I really don’t understand how a person can believe in the free market system and still feel entitled to get a product at significantly less than the market price.

The flippers are the real heroes here as they INCREASE supply in the free market to help ensure that the watch can be best allocated to the buyer willing to pay the most for it. If there were no flippers grey market pricing would be even more extreme due to the even smaller supply and even fewer deserving market participants (those willing to pay market price) would get the watches they want.

The most unhelpful market participants of all, other than PP/ADs underpricing their goods and creating the situation, are people who buy at MSRP but would not have bought at grey price. They are creating a huge inefficiency in the market and should sell their watch at the grey price to help correct the market, they are being offered more money for the watch than they value the watch at, it makes no sense (logically) to not sell.

Of course if they value the watch at more than the market price but could only afford the RRP, not the market price, then they would not sell the watch, but they should realise that it is PP who has given them free money and that’s the only reason they can afford the watch.

Why PP and other watch brands are doing this and leaving money on the table for their customers benefit is open to debate. In any case, flippers and greys are the only people doing anything to fix the market. All steps taken to reduce flipping just makes it worse, as they further reduce supply in the free market and increase the number of watches allocated to the wrong people.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by justdate

How about this.. flippers and grey market dealers are actually doing a good thing and improve the market significantly! They help to correct the distorted market created by watch companies under pricing their goods.

I really don’t understand how a person can believe in the free market system and still feel entitled to get a product at significantly less than the market price.

The flippers are the real heroes here as they INCREASE supply in the free market to help ensure that the watch can be best allocated to the buyer willing to pay the most for it. If there were no flippers grey market pricing would be even more extreme due to the even smaller supply and even fewer deserving market participants (those willing to pay market price) would get the watches they want.

The most unhelpful market participants of all, other than PP/ADs underpricing their goods and creating the situation, are people who buy at MSRP but would not have bought at grey price. They are creating a huge inefficiency in the market and should sell their watch at the grey price to help correct the market, they are being offered more money for the watch than they value the watch at, it makes no sense (logically) to not sell.

Of course if they value the watch at more than the market price but could only afford the RRP, not the market price, then they would not sell the watch, but they should realise that it is PP who has given them free money and that’s the only reason they can afford the watch.

Why PP and other watch brands are doing this and leaving money on the table for their customers benefit is open to debate. In any case, flippers and greys are the only people doing anything to fix the market. All steps taken to reduce flipping just makes it worse, as they further reduce supply in the free market and increase the number of watches allocated to the wrong people.

I can only assume this is a joke?