A. Lange & Sohne 2nd hand market

[Sulituan]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Also, Lange got hit hard with a 50% production reduction last year due to the pandemic. That's pretty harsh.

Oh wow, thanks for sharing this number. Did this come from an interview or article?

[deezee]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

I definitely feel there are fewer Langes out there. But I have no statistical evidence and basically say this based only what I see on C24 and the dealers I follow.

I think many ADs have stopped selling direct to dealers because there are more customers going through the retail channel and discounts have moderated. But I think the big factor might be that several dealers are holding their Lange models back in anticipation of higher demand and higher prices. In general, dealers pay crap for Langes so they can absolutely afford to buy and hold.

There’s zero doubt that some of the big players (i.e., WatchBox) are trying to hype Lange and repeat what has occurred with FPJ. We will see what happens...

Agree. I’m not finding any shortages at AD level. Models are available even after cuts. They can easily be bought at 15-25% discount new. Then you still take a hit if you sell to any jeweler.

So assume you bought the watch new for 34k after your 25% discount, (plus sales tax) you then go to any of the dealers mentioned above, they won’t give you more then 24k for it as the want to sell for 30k pre owned. So you still taking a 12k hit on something you bought right,
because you got a 25% discount. It crazy how it depreciates.

Now, I know we don’t buy these watches to sell but rather to enjoy, however you have to think that someday if you do need cash, it would at least hold value somewhat. Really sad it doesn’t. You really need to commit before buying any of these Lange

[illiguy]

Originally Posted by deezee

Agree. I’m not finding any shortages at AD level. Models are available even after cuts. They can easily be bought at 15-25% discount new. Then you still take a hit if you sell to any jeweler.

So assume you bought the watch new for 34k after your 25% discount, (plus sales tax) you then go to any of the dealers mentioned above, they won’t give you more then 24k for it as the want to sell for 30k pre owned. So you still taking a 12k hit on something you bought right,
because you got a 25% discount. It crazy how it depreciates.

Now, I know we don’t buy these watches to sell but rather to enjoy, however you have to think that someday if you do need cash, it would at least hold value somewhat. Really sad it doesn’t. You really need to commit before buying any of these Lange

With ALS, if you buy second hand, you take out a lot of the initial hit, and the “value” comes from pure enjoyment of an incredibly well-made, well-finished, piece of high horology. Economic value retention is relevant, but I’d venture a guess that most ALS owners here simply love the watches they have, first and foremost.

A nice change from the Rolex madness.

[Dj_masse]

Originally Posted by deezee

Agree. I’m not finding any shortages at AD level. Models are available even after cuts. They can easily be bought at 15-25% discount new. Then you still take a hit if you sell to any jeweler.

So assume you bought the watch new for 34k after your 25% discount, (plus sales tax) you then go to any of the dealers mentioned above, they won’t give you more then 24k for it as the want to sell for 30k pre owned. So you still taking a 12k hit on something you bought right,
because you got a 25% discount. It crazy how it depreciates.

Now, I know we don’t buy these watches to sell but rather to enjoy, however you have to think that someday if you do need cash, it would at least hold value somewhat. Really sad it doesn’t. You really need to commit before buying any of these Lange

Speaking from experience, some areas are already firming on price as well. My local AD in Canada has pretty much everything in stock, and so I was interested in a WG Saxonia thin....you can buy those any day of the week. The most they would budge is 10%, and she was non committal until she spoke to her “manager”. And this is after I’ve already bought a few AP’s and Rolexes from them through the years. Felt like I was buying a car. Told her thank you and I moved on.

TL;DR I bought the Saxonia Thin from Crown And Caliber for 45% off retail and a Lange 1 Daymatic for about the same amount off msrp from a fellow collector. Second hand is def the way to go.


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[deezee]

Originally Posted by Dj_masse

Speaking from experience, some areas are already firming on price as well. My local AD in Canada has pretty much everything in stock, and so I was interested in a WG Saxonia thin....you can buy those any day of the week. The most they would budge is 10%, and she was non committal until she spoke to her “manager”. And this is after I’ve already bought a few AP’s and Rolexes from them through the years. Felt like I was buying a car. Told her thank you and I moved on.

TL;DR I bought the Saxonia Thin from Crown And Caliber for 45% off retail and a Lange 1 Daymatic for about the same amount off msrp from a fellow collector. Second hand is def the way to go.


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That’s definitely the way to go. 45% off list that nice. I’m trying to buy that way but don’t see any available. Where is a good place to look where collectors may list them?

[PaulFL]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Or bright red.

Amazing looking strap, is it rubber like the orange one? Did you order it online or had to go into one of their stores?

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by PaulFL

Amazing looking strap, is it rubber like the orange one? Did you order it online or had to go into one of their stores?

This is a treated leather rather than rubber and was ordered online from Camille Fournet. I wouldn’t swim with this strap.

[chiscott_29]

I was bored the other night and spent some time on C24. It seems like most ALS models are now “yellow” or “red”, which basically means the dealer doesn’t have the watch and they have to call up the AD that’s willing to sell it to them. There isn’t much out there, at all.

Even those with a “green” indication didn’t turn up anything...I contacted two dealers and I got “Sorry, it just sold” and “I can’t honor that price”.

The pickings are getting thin on the secondary market, which could be a strong indication that prices are headed north.


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[jschmidtdmd]

I think we will see a dramatic shift and strengthening as they introduce all the new stuff this year that's boutique only.

[jpwv]

I am headed to San Francisco in May and was hoping to pick up an 1815 Up/Down. Any idea what the discounts are these days? Per the posts in this thread, it used to be 15-25%, but someone said they could only get 10%. Any other experiences in the last couple months?

[JR16]

My guess is now 0%. If you are really lucky, 10%


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[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by jpwv

I am headed to San Francisco in May and was hoping to pick up an 1815 Up/Down. Any idea what the discounts are these days? Per the posts in this thread, it used to be 15-25%, but someone said they could only get 10%. Any other experiences in the last couple months?

Now it seems to be 0%. I can't believe how lucky I got buying my Zeitwerk lol

[jed11]

Originally Posted by jpwv

I am headed to San Francisco in May and was hoping to pick up an 1815 Up/Down. Any idea what the discounts are these days? Per the posts in this thread, it used to be 15-25%, but someone said they could only get 10%. Any other experiences in the last couple months?

In the Bay Area, these days, it's going to be tough to get anything. I lucked out with mine just a couple of years ago but it will be tough today. Especially for the Up/Down which, while still a lot of $$$, sort of the middle of the pricing tier in the Lange catalog.

[justcruisin]

I’m in the same market as jed11. On 1815UD, no discount outside of maybe some savings on tax depending on how you pay. I think if you go up to Lange 1, there may be some additional...but not much. My Lange 1 MP, no tax and 10% off.

[jpwv]

I appreciate the replies. At $31.8k msrp I will have to check with my grey contact prior to considering the AD route any further. I seem to remember a much higher discount from him last time we spoke. I have not checked in a few months though.

Also, I just checked Chrono24. An 1815 U/D is posted for $25,800. Supposedly brand new and unworn. Purchased in Feb 2021. Seller said he will take $24,800.

It is confusing to me why an AD would apparently sell this to a grey dealer for less than $24,800, but would not sell the same watch to me at a discount. I know the grey buys volume, but if you have a sale right in front of your face with a potential long-term customer.

[CastorKrieg]

I noticed lately ALS prices on the secondary market have been going up, I don't know if it's the brand appreciation, the pandemic, the QE bubble that shows no sign of stopping, or all of them together. Datograph went from 55k to 75k EUR, Saxonia still shows at -30% from retail, but at the same time no guarantee these prices will be honored. For 5k difference to retail I would rather go to the boutique, buy there and have a shot at the Odysseus in 2-3 years time.

[S``]

1 word: Watchbox.

After their success with FPJ, Lange is their next target.

They started their "assault" with the hiring of Langepedia recently

[Hafez]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

I’ve been told that Lange boutiques have stopped discounts. I am not sure if that applies evenly to all customers, but they are most definitely harder to come by.

ADs I think I’ve seen some other posts on here suggesting you can still get 10 to 15%, but I don’t have any personal experience.

Personally, I think this is going to be a tough sell because the fact remains Lange’s still lag in the secondary market. Of course, if Lange starts getting even half of the attention of something like Journe this will change overnight.

But for now, if you look on C24 you might believe prices have firmed. But, that’s an illusion. Try selling a Lange to somebody like WatchBox, European, or one of the other larger dealers. You’ll see what I mean.


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You are 100:/: right. I don’t get the comparison btw Lange and Journe. The later still makes all his complications personally hand made. Lange produces over 3500 watches a year.


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[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by Hafez

You are 100:/: right. I don’t get the comparison btw Lange and Journe. The later still makes all his complications personally hand made. Lange produces over 3500 watches a year.

Lange movements are hand made too.

FP Journe does not make his complications himself (he hasn't done that for at least 15-18 years). He has a staff of watchmakers.

Forgive me, but Lange finishing makes Journe's finishing look weak.

Lange's finishing makes Patek's finishing look weak, too.

(And yes, I respect and appreciate both Patek and Journe.)

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by S``

1 word: Watchbox.

After their success with FPJ, Lange is their next target.

They started their "assault" with the hiring of Langepedia recently

Wow. They bought Langepedia?

[Langepedia]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Wow. They bought Langepedia?

Hello Sir - Langepedia here haha.

No, we ventured into a partnership, which you can see some details in my IG post from 8th of April.

Best,
Alp

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Langepedia

Hello Sir - Langepedia here haha.

No, we ventured into a partnership, which you can see some details in my IG post from 8th of April.

Best,
Alp

And what an amazing resource you have built at Langepedia.com.

[watchucallit]

Could not agree more

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Lange movements are hand made too.

FP Journe does not make his complications himself (he hasn't done that for at least 15-18 years). He has a staff of watchmakers.

Forgive me, but Lange finishing makes Journe's finishing look weak.

Lange's finishing makes Patek's finishing look weak, too.

(And yes, I respect and appreciate both Patek and Journe.)

[justcruisin]

I recall someone asking me to consider the Lange 1 Darth last year when I was first looking at ALS. Curious since EWC JUST listed one at $54.5k (on hold almost immediately), but there was a listing by DavidSW in 2019 that was for $23k - all with box and papers. Reference 101.035. Talk about firming up on prices......assuming it does go for $54.5k.

[edhahn44]

There is definitely a steep upward trend visible for some references (Darth, closed case back L1, first gen chrono, first gen dato, etc.) and a general increase in prices for Lange on the secondary market.


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[CFR]

Originally Posted by justcruisin

I recall someone asking me to consider the Lange 1 Darth last year when I was first looking at ALS. Curious since EWC JUST listed one at $54.5k (on hold almost immediately), but there was a listing by DavidSW in 2019 that was for $23k - all with box and papers. Reference 101.035. Talk about firming up on prices......assuming it does go for $54.5k.

Was that me who suggested the Darth lol? I kinda like the Darth but have never owned one. :)

EWC can command somewhat higher prices than many other dealers in part because they have a large, loyal, wealthy clientele that doesn't want or need to look elsewhere. Govberg/Watchbox may be the same way to some extent, though I'm not so familiar with them. Smaller dealers like DavidSW (other than for modern Rolex pieces) will get less.

A complicating factor is that we never know how much the customer actually paid unless the customer is one of us and tells us here on the forum. It's often the case that these watches aren't sold for cash but instead change hands as partial trades, with other pieces involved, which makes valuations much more complicated. All I can say for sure is that $23.4K USD for a complete Darth in 2019 was a low price (but not by much), and $54.5K today seems like a high price, but if a platinum Datograph 410.035 can actually sell for about $80K then maybe not!

[justcruisin]

Originally Posted by CFR

Was that me who suggested the Darth lol? I kinda like the Darth but have never owned one. :)

I believe so...and guessed that the price would go up steeply...which it seems like it has. That said, just an interesting data point because the help that you and other forum members gave me on the 192.032 makes me absolutely happiest with this reference, no matter the value of any of the others in the Lange 1 family.

[liu_watch]

Originally Posted by justcruisin

I recall someone asking me to consider the Lange 1 Darth last year when I was first looking at ALS. Curious since EWC JUST listed one at $54.5k (on hold almost immediately), but there was a listing by DavidSW in 2019 that was for $23k - all with box and papers. Reference 101.035. Talk about firming up on prices......assuming it does go for $54.5k.

This is just a theory/speculation:

EWC lists incoming watches under the “Incoming” tab for quite a few days without listing prices. Some of which are sold during the time through private inquiries. Then they move every listing, sold or unsold, to the New Arrival tab. The ones that were already sold will appear as “immediately sold”, for which they can list any price they wish. This may be also why we see some pieces are immediately sold/ on hold at astronomical prices.

[justcruisin]

I probably camp out on the EWC site more than I care to admit, but I noticed this last week...they cycle out the pieces that stay stagnant.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by liu_watch

This is just a theory/speculation:

EWC lists incoming watches under the “Incoming” tab for quite a few days without listing prices. Some of which are sold during the time through private inquiries. Then they move every listing, sold or unsold, to the New Arrival tab. The ones that were already sold will appear as “immediately sold”, for which they can list any price they wish. This may be also why we see some pieces are immediately sold/ on hold at astronomical prices.

I suspect something a bit fishy as well. The vast price increases coupled with immediate "On Holds" followed by prompt sales looks suspect.