Did I get scammed?

[dlmocdm]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Looking back at older Pateks there were minor dial variations on the same reference over the runs. For example, putting "Swiss Made" on some dials but not others.

Right, for example the 5726a-001 has two dial variations (see https://youtu.be/BDo6tT-8qrw). But neglecting to lume the markers is a bit of a stretch for a dial variation, I would suspect.

[dlmocdm]

Originally Posted by w220

My guess is that your watch is authentic, just a newer production run with a dial variation.

In Patek's website, I was always shown with lumed markers; see here: https://web.archive.org/web/20190208...ions/5146P-001.

[dchang81]

I don't get how people can say definitely something is wrong. patek and Rolex have always had small variations throughout production runs. on the flip side of you have doubt them I say it's never worth the cost savings.

[azizu]

Originally Posted by bob101

Did the early 5146p have no lume plots? See if online can find any examples.

Personally the underside of case back doesn’t look right in the photos could just be generally over polished and not well looked after. The case seems over polished and also looks a bit odd but photos on their site not great. I’d pass on it and ask for your money back and find a better example.

I don’t believe this is an early example of the platinum 5146 because it has the PP seal on the movement rather than the Geneva seal. So it is circa 2009 or earlier. I once had in my collection the white gold version with off white dial and one of the coolest features of it is the lume for sure.


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[ExplorerI]

Did you ever talk to them?

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Update: I had a first conversation with the owner of Phigora. He stated he is committed to making this right.

At this point, he has stated he is willing to, at his cost, pay for the watch to be fully serviced by Patek, including a servicing of the case. This way, any problems with the watch will be identified by Patek and can be remedied. However, given that we don't know what Patek will say, if we go forward this way, I am not committed to the watch and can elect a refund if I'm not interested in the serviced watch. Two questions about this: 1. Assume the watch is already over polished (as one person suggested). Will Patek note that and recommend a replacement case? 2. Does a replacement dial, assuming one will be required lower the value of the watch? This is not an investment, but it would be nice to know if I'm better off with option 2 below.

Option two is that he will seek out a replacement 5146p that is clean and to spec which I could have instead. He is looking for replacements, and I expect to hear from him tomorrow.

[77T]

It’s good that he will work with you. There is a another option, though.

With the lengthy interval in having any Patek serviced, not to mention the risks you surfaced, that would not be a great choice if you’re keen on wearing it soon.

Of course he might find another one with lume dots intact. But again - could be long time.

What about this option?
Have him get an Extract from the Archives for the Watch from Patek. If your only concern is that the dial is original/genuine, that might be an option.


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[codecow]

Hmm both of those sound bad. Who serviced and authenticated the watch in the first place?

Is this naked or does it have box and papers?

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by 77T

It’s good that he will work with you. There is a another option, though.

With the lengthy interval in having any Patek serviced, not to mention the risks you surfaced, that would not be a great choice if you’re keen on wearing it soon.

Of course he might find another one with lume dots intact. But again - could be long time.

What about this option?
Have him get an Extract from the Archives for the Watch from Patek. If your only concern is that the dial is original/genuine, that might be an option.


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Per Patek, the extract of archives is explicitly not a guarantee of authenticity. See, response to FAQ No. 1: https://www.patek.com/en/retail-serv...sked-questions

As you pointed out, I've now got concerns about the sub-dial letter kerning as well as the lack of lume dots, among other things. While it's certainly possible the dial is an authentic variation, it's also possible the dial and other parts of the watch are inauthentic. For those reasons, even if the extract process was an authentication service, I don't think simply sending photos to Patek, as per the extract process, would therefore suffice because it would not provide an opportunity for Patek to examine all of the watch, including the movement.

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by codecow

Hmm both of those sound bad. Who serviced and authenticated the watch in the first place?

Is this naked or does it have box and papers?

Both sound bad? How so?

Watch was sold naked.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Both sound bad? How so?

Watch was sold naked.

If I understand correctly, you can dump this pig and get a refund. Start over. This thing is never going to be to your satisfaction.


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[dlmocdm]

Definitely get a refund. They advertised and sold a watch that, by the looks of it, is fake or has some non-original parts. They should have properly authenticated it but failed to do so. If you had not noticed it, you could have walked out with a fake/non-original watch. That is quite bad; wouldn't trust that seller. If the dial is indeed an original variation, they should be able to explain it (e.g. which years it was produced, etc) because again, they should have authenticated the watch. So I would get my money back and work with a different, more trustworthy seller.

Option #1 is pretty bad. They would just lose <2k USD out of their failure (accidental or intended), you would have to wait several months (while they hold your money), and if it is indeed Frankenstein watch, not sure what Patek may do. If a new case, new dial, etc. is needed, Patek would likely charge extra. The seller may reject the extra charges, and you may end up without a watch, and having had your money held for months.

Option #2 is more reasonable, but they would likely try to identify the cheapest watch they can (e.g. not in pristine condition, overpolished, without papers, etc.) and allocate it to you. I don't think they will procure the best watch they can, at their loss.

My recommendation, get your money back, start with a new seller.

[Horologista]

Originally Posted by dlmocdm

Definitely get a refund. They advertised and sold a watch that, by the looks of it, is fake or has some non-original parts. They should have properly authenticated it but failed to do so. If you had not noticed it, you could have walked out with a fake/non-original watch. That is quite bad; wouldn't trust that seller. If the dial is indeed an original variation, they should be able to explain it (e.g. which years it was produced, etc) because again, they should have authenticated the watch. So I would get my money back and work with a different, more trustworthy seller.

Option #1 is pretty bad. They would just lose <2k USD out of their failure (accidental or intended), you would have to wait several months (while they hold your money), and if it is indeed Frankenstein watch, not sure what Patek may do. If a new case, new dial, etc. is needed, Patek would likely charge extra. The seller may reject the extra charges, and you may end up without a watch, and having had your money held for months.

Option #2 is more reasonable, but they would likely try to identify the cheapest watch they can (e.g. not in pristine condition, overpolished, without papers, etc.) and allocate it to you. I don't think they will procure the best watch they can, at their loss.

My recommendation, get your money back, start with a new seller.

Agree with this if can get money back, but the money was wired. Seller may be unwilling to refund it.

[dlmocdm]

Originally Posted by Horologista

Agree with this if can get money back, but the money was wired. Seller may be unwilling to refund it.

Why? Their website indicates:

(1) Every watch is inspected and authenticated before it’s listed to sell. While not all pre-owned watches come with it’s original certificate, every item comes with a Phigora Certificate of authenticity. We guaranty authenticity or your money back.

(2) Unless otherwise indicated, you can return any watch for any reason within 14 days of receiving.

[codecow]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Both sound bad? How so?

Watch was sold naked.

Anyone who is going to sell a watch and then offer, “my bad we’ll find a real one” or we’ll send it to Patek and see what they say… well they’ll likely take months and then go “uh…”

So there’s really only option 2.

In that case, what kind of shop is that and do you want them picking your watch?

Much better to get a refund and then try again starting with trusted sellers.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Per Patek, the extract of archives is explicitly not a guarantee of authenticity. See, response to FAQ No. 1: https://www.patek.com/en/retail-serv...sked-questions

As you pointed out, I've now got concerns about the sub-dial letter kerning as well as the lack of lume dots, among other things. While it's certainly possible the dial is an authentic variation, it's also possible the dial and other parts of the watch are inauthentic. For those reasons, even if the extract process was an authentication service, I don't think simply sending photos to Patek, as per the extract process, would therefore suffice because it would not provide an opportunity for Patek to examine all of the watch, including the movement.

Then I’d return it upon arrival for the refund.


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[ExplorerI]

Getting it serviced by Patek on their dime isn’t the worst outcome. Start fresh with a fully serviced watch

[Bmats]

I think the seller is working with you and that great. So they seem standup in that regard — worried a bit about the pre-sale authentication if the owner is now concerned. But seems like he wants you happy.

If it were me, I’d probably be happiest by just getting the refund and starting over. If you want a 5146 there are a lot out there if you expand beyond platinum. The white gold with slate dial looks very similar. And the white gold with ivory dial may be the best (though I am partial to the rose gold one). I bet you can find a pretty recent one with box and papers — I did.


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[Sunny_Submariner]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Update: I had a first conversation with the owner of Phigora. He stated he is committed to making this right.

At this point, he has stated he is willing to, at his cost, pay for the watch to be fully serviced by Patek, including a servicing of the case. This way, any problems with the watch will be identified by Patek and can be remedied. However, given that we don't know what Patek will say, if we go forward this way, I am not committed to the watch and can elect a refund if I'm not interested in the serviced watch. Two questions about this: 1. Assume the watch is already over polished (as one person suggested). Will Patek note that and recommend a replacement case? 2. Does a replacement dial, assuming one will be required lower the value of the watch? This is not an investment, but it would be nice to know if I'm better off with option 2 below.

Option two is that he will seek out a replacement 5146p that is clean and to spec which I could have instead. He is looking for replacements, and I expect to hear from him tomorrow.

I know you aren't asking for advice here, but I think this is what you should do: get your money back and just spend the money at an AD. Why go through all of the headache with such an expensive item? If you are paying a ton of money for a watch, you should get it directly from the source so you know you are the first owner and can enjoy it in peace.

[dlmocdm]

Originally Posted by Sunny_Submariner

I know you aren't asking for advice here, but I think this is what you should do: get your money back and just spend the money at an AD. Why go through all of the headache with such an expensive item? If you are paying a ton of money for a watch, you should get it directly from the source so you know you are the first owner and can enjoy it in peace.

That model is discontinued, plus it is hard to buy from ADs these days. What I don't understand, though, is why watches are being sold without box and papers. I find hard to believe that the owner of a platinum watch would just throw away the papers, box, all documentations of the purchase etc. In a climate where so many watches are being stolen, the whole idea of naked watches is a bit suspicious to me.

[Ellz]

I’m so sorry for what has happened to you- I always add up the pluses and minuses in every part or major decision in my mid. I feel you return the watch as they have offered. Don’t look back. Find a top example from one of our TS they are the best and you would get a watch you are 100% happy with and can sleep better knowing your watch is 110% correct. Good luck OP KEEP US POSTED- hope it turns out best for you :-)))

[77T]

Originally Posted by dlmocdm

That model is discontinued, plus it is hard to buy from ADs these days. What I don't understand, though, is why watches are being sold without box and papers. I find hard to believe that the owner of a platinum watch would just throw away the papers, box, all documentations of the purchase etc. In a climate where so many watches are being stolen, the whole idea of naked watches is a bit suspicious to me.

Well, I can think of one reason…and had it actually happen to me.

The dealer had no credible way to know - nor did the ultimate buyer.

But the Platona burgled from my home was the watch. Thieves didn’t bother with the box and papers.


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[dlmocdm]

Originally Posted by 77T

Well, I can think of one reason…and had it actually happen to me.

The dealer had no credible way to know - nor did the ultimate buyer.

But the Platona burgled from my home was the watch. Thieves didn’t bother with the box and papers.


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Right; so there is a significant probability that watches sold without box and papers are actually stolen watches. I can understand people may throw away box/papers for e.g. a 3k watch, but not for a >50k one. Do you have an intuition of what percentage of naked Pateks may have been stolen?

[77T]

No data to even make a decent guess.
I was only explaining one reason.

When I recovered my stolen watch in 2021, the Interpol liaison commented that they do over 100 referrals globally each day. But that’s every brand worth chasing, and not indicative of domestic crime in any one country...


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[shammad10]

You need to walk away my friend.
How many red flags do you need to realise that it is not worth your significant money?

Take the money and fight another day.

[yellowfinger]

what's the verdict? is this watch a super clone or legit?

[Partekular]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Watch was sold naked.

There’s a lesson there - never ever buy an expensive watch in the grey market without a minimum of papers and the seller agreeing to accept a fully refunded return if it turns out to be an adulterated Frankenstein.

If thieves and muggers couldn’t sell them without papers there’d be far fewer muggings. The grey market for newish watches ought to be controlled or at best avoided!

I can almost hear a response “my grey seller is legitimate!” .HMMMM why then did they buy a current model without papers? Of course, they’ll buy for well under the grey price and increase their margin.

[1William]

Get a refund. Find a watch that is complete.

[Moondoggy]

I’d never buy a watch naked unless I had a nice pair of slacks nearby.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by shammad10

you need to walk away my friend.
How many red flags do you need to realise that it is not worth your significant money?

Take the money and fight another day.

+1