Journe or Patek

[MJaber]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Wow! Thanks everyone! I did not think it would be so one sided.

For those that did not like the comparison, I've very sorry that my personal journey did not meet your expectations.

The one thing that really stands out is MJaber comment about the dial being stamped: I had no idea so thank you for the information. As I have not seen one in person, would you say that there is much of a difference in dial quality versus a Breguet?

Nothing wrong with stamped if you are ok with it. Ive wanted a Journe for a very long time but after touring the Manufacture back in January i realized the brand is not for me.

One of the major things i look for in a watch is the degree of handwork that goes into it and Journe watchmaking process is highly mechanized ie: Perlage and ribbing are done by computers. in my opinion, stamping dials is very lazy and if the brand cant put enough effort into hand finishing their watches, then price them accordingly. Im not sure about Patek but i suspect they are more hands on than Journe.

My comment is not to dissuade you from getting a Journe or even a criticism against an amazing brand but to help you make an informed decision.

[tryptobphan]

Originally Posted by MJaber

Nothing wrong with stamped if you are ok with it. Ive wanted a Journe for a very long time but after touring the Manufacture back in January i realized the brand is not for me.

One of the major things i look for in a watch is the degree of handwork that goes into it and Journe watchmaking process is highly mechanized ie: Perlage and ribbing are done by computers. in my opinion, stamping dials is very lazy and if the brand cant put enough effort into hand finishing their watches, then price them accordingly. Im not sure about Patek but i suspect they are more hands on than Journe.

My comment is not to dissuade you from getting a Journe or even a criticism against an amazing brand but to help you make an informed decision.

That's really interesting, I wouldn't have guessed that by how popular FP Journe seems to be in the collector circles right now. Still, some of their watches are quite nice.

[GradyPhilpott]

Both are nice, but I'd prefer the Patek.

They're very different watches, so I don't see a direct comparison, except the time function.

[MJaber]

Originally Posted by tryptobphan

That's really interesting, I wouldn't have guessed that by how popular FP Journe seems to be in the collector circles right now. Still, some of their watches are quite nice.

Again, nothing wrong with that. Journe is by far one of the best watchmakers of our modern time and id pick their watches over PP any day- except for minute repeaters.

Also, Journe is not the only watchmaker to utilize computers to finish their watches. AP for example mechanically bevels their regular movements with one exception, calibre 2121.

As long as a brand is upfront about their watchmaking then thats perfectly fine.

[tacotaco]

FP
but its damn close

[benlee]

Between these two, the FPJ.

But just curious, any particular reason why not consider the other PP models and only this ref?

[belligero]

Originally Posted by MJaber

[...] Im not sure about Patek but i suspect they are more hands on than Journe.
[...]

Modern Pateks are very much mass-produced, mostly using automated machinery.

The finishing on the 5146 isn’t anything too special, and it doesn’t involve a great deal of work done by hand.

[bigfatpauli]

Thanks again, everyone for your input. In the end, I think neither is the right watch for me. And after learning more about Journe the more I feel that that will never be for me.

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Thanks again, everyone for your input. In the end, I think neither is the right watch for me. And after learning more about Journe the more I feel that that will never be for me.

Sad to hear that... Journe won in a landslide for a reason :)

Best of luck with whatever you decide!

[Peterandwatches]

Makes sense. You already have an ALS for every day business and a Marine for daily use. The Journe would be nice piece, but hardly necessary for function.

I still did very much enjoy the thread. It's interesting to see how folks compare Journe and Patek at that price range.

[tryptobphan]

This was actually a really enlightening thread, I learned a lot about these two brands and how they're made. Makes me question what I look for in a time piece, especially if I am spending that much.

[Fard]

Obviously Patek. I don't like Journe's style.

[tk.watch]

Out of the two options given, I definitely like the Journe a lot more. The styling is more contemporary whilst being classic in all the right ways. I'd also say the Journe is arguably more special given the amount of hand finishing compared to this Patek - not to mention the materials used, particularly in the movement.

However If I can throw a curve ball, having myself recently gone through the process of identifying and acquiring a daily dressier watch - one that isn't too dressy to wear casually - I settled on the Lange 1815 Up/Down. I would highly recommend this watch!

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by tk.watch

Out of the two options given, I definitely like the Journe a lot more. The styling is more contemporary whilst being classic in all the right ways. I'd also say the Journe is arguably more special given the amount of hand finishing compared to this Patek - not to mention the materials used, particularly in the movement.

However If I can throw a curve ball, having myself recently gone through the process of identifying and acquiring a daily dressier watch - one that isn't too dressy to wear casually - I settled on the Lange 1815 Up/Down. I would highly recommend this watch!

That's one of the big things about the Journe that turned me off. There is less hand finishing that one might expect.

Back to Lange for me personally.

[tigerpac]

The Journe by quite a margin. I think if that Patek had another name on the dial it would have been forgotten long ago.

[kunlun]

FPJourne X 1,000,000.

Tried both on. Own FPJ.

[ace1]

Patek for me

[dakota.destiny]

Lange would have been a better choice vs the patek.

[JJ WA]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

And after learning more about Journe the more I feel that that will never be for me.

May I ask why? Just curious...

[speedy_master1]

Journe will do for this run.

[watchtabs]

For me PP.

[debner4]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Thanks again, everyone for your input. In the end, I think neither is the right watch for me. And after learning more about Journe the more I feel that that will never be for me.

What this tells me is that the OP “wanted” everyone to tell him that the Patek was better and when they didn’t he ignored the landslide victory for Journe as a reason to buy a Journe (that he never really wanted) and instead, just used the feedback to eliminate the Patek.

That’s OP’s prerogative, and he needs to make the best decision for him, but I find it hard to believe that when once asks between two watches and 90% of the responses choose the same watch, that he would pass on that one too because the guilloche on the dial is stamped.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by debner4

What this tells me is that the OP “wanted” everyone to tell him that the Patek was better and when they didn’t he ignored the landslide victory for Journe as a reason to buy a Journe (that he never really wanted) and instead, just used the feedback to eliminate the Patek.

That’s OP’s prerogative, and he needs to make the best decision for him, but I find it hard to believe that when once asks between two watches and 90% of the responses choose the same watch, that he would pass on that one too because the guilloche on the dial is stamped.

I'm sorry but that's series of ridiculous assumptions. I didn't 'want' anything. I really was on the fence between the two but the community tipped the scales to the Journe. My issues with Journe, despite another one of your assumptions, isn't about the stamped dial, though it isn't a plus.

The community mentioned a few things about Journe (and Patek) manufacturing that caused me to dig deeper, do more research, call a few AD's, and send a few PM's for more investigation on both brands. Much more happned than your narrow view of this thread. What I turned up turned me off to Journe leaving me with a firm neither to the choices. It also guided me back to a brand I have always loved and it cemented that their processes and culture are more in line with what I am after.

Frankly, I'm really glad I did this. I know much more about both brands now and it has been a good learning experience for me as I was not overly familiar with either as far as the details of the actual manufacturing.

If this forum isn't about sharing knowledge learning, then I guess I am in the wrong place as are many of very helpful and knowledgeable members. If it is a place about sharing knowledge, however, you comment certainly doesn't embrace that culture.

I'm sorry you question my validity but I am also under the impression that I don't owe you anything.

[eviperman]

FPJ won by a landslide in your comparison... that is very clear.

I own many FPJ and Patek (not that model) pieces so as an owner of both brands my opinion is this...

Both FPJ and Patek make spectacular watches, which I don't think anyone can really disagree with.

For movement "finishing", Patek wins. BUT if we add Lange into this, Lange easily beats Patek on this.

For history, Patek wins.

For innovation, FPJ wins (talking the last 20 years of course).

For uniqueness and rarity, FPJ wins.

Value for money... well, FPJ is a clear winner here.

Resale value... something many seem to care about... I view them as being equal. It all depends on the model you buy, but there are many Journe pieces worth a lot more than what they retailed for... and yes, same with Patek. Likewise, there are many pieces from both that you can buy substantially below retail in the secondary market.

And, as someone who has visited both FPJ and Patek in Geneva I can tell you both experiences were great. Did your research tell you that only one of these companies still makes their watches in central Geneva?

Personally, I find a lot more "magic" in FPJ watches... but like I said, nothing wrong with liking and wearing both.

Now, going back to the OP...

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

My issues with Journe, despite another one of your assumptions, isn't about the stamped dial, though it isn't a plus.

The community mentioned a few things about Journe (and Patek) manufacturing that caused me to dig deeper, do more research, call a few AD's, and send a few PM's for more investigation on both brands. What I turned up turned me off to Journe leaving me with a firm neither to the choices.

Please do share what you discovered that put you off FP Journe as I'm very curious and I'm sure others would appreciate hearing what turned you off FPJ...

[Chiboy]

Wow, although I have never posted a "Should I get A or B?" thread, I wasn't aware of the obligation to follow the majority. I thought a thread was usually started to get a discussion going about a sharing of opinions and information, with each reader left to take from it what he or she wants.

[tryptobphan]

Although I am curious about the reasons myself, I personally don't think the OP owes an explanation to any of us.

For myself, I may not know about these watch brands as much as some of you do, so I have assumptions about certain watchmakers until I learn more. For example, I love the dials on FP Journe and I just assumed based on popularity and certain impressions I read that they do as much handwork in creating their dials as Breguet does. However, if I find out that isn't the case, I'd rethink about getting the FP Journe. But for all I know, Breguet probably doesn't do as much for their dials as I assume either, so I may be wrong as well.

In any case, good luck on finding your next watch. It's threads like this that I enjoy the most, I got to learn some things from people who have toured the factories or made me question my own watches and what I value in my future watches.

[debner4]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I'm sorry but that's series of ridiculous assumptions. I didn't 'want' anything. I really was on the fence between the two but the community tipped the scales to the Journe. My issues with Journe, despite another one of your assumptions, isn't about the stamped dial, though it isn't a plus.

The community mentioned a few things about Journe (and Patek) manufacturing that caused me to dig deeper, do more research, call a few AD's, and send a few PM's for more investigation on both brands. Much more happned than your narrow view of this thread. What I turned up turned me off to Journe leaving me with a firm neither to the choices. It also guided me back to a brand I have always loved and it cemented that their processes and culture are more in line with what I am after.

Frankly, I'm really glad I did this. I know much more about both brands now and it has been a good learning experience for me as I was not overly familiar with either as far as the details of the actual manufacturing.

If this forum isn't about sharing knowledge learning, then I guess I am in the wrong place as are many of very helpful and knowledgeable members. If it is a place about sharing knowledge, however, you comment certainly doesn't embrace that culture.

I'm sorry you question my validity but I am also under the impression that I don't owe you anything.

I appreciate the fact that I made assumptions that may have been incorrect, and apologize if that was the case, but please share what you learned about these brands from your research and PMs with everyone so that we are all more informed.

And can you please identify what brand you you have always loved and are glad to be going back to? As you correctly point out, this message board is for sharing information, and you clearly have information that many would appreciate so that we can all learn as much as we can about these brands as well.

[galtinuk]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I'm sorry but that's series of ridiculous assumptions. I didn't 'want' anything. I really was on the fence between the two but the community tipped the scales to the Journe. My issues with Journe, despite another one of your assumptions, isn't about the stamped dial, though it isn't a plus.

The community mentioned a few things about Journe (and Patek) manufacturing that caused me to dig deeper, do more research, call a few AD's, and send a few PM's for more investigation on both brands. Much more happned than your narrow view of this thread. What I turned up turned me off to Journe leaving me with a firm neither to the choices. It also guided me back to a brand I have always loved and it cemented that their processes and culture are more in line with what I am after.

Frankly, I'm really glad I did this. I know much more about both brands now and it has been a good learning experience for me as I was not overly familiar with either as far as the details of the actual manufacturing.

If this forum isn't about sharing knowledge learning, then I guess I am in the wrong place as are many of very helpful and knowledgeable members. If it is a place about sharing knowledge, however, you comment certainly doesn't embrace that culture.

I'm sorry you question my validity but I am also under the impression that I don't owe you anything.

You have asked the community here to share what they know and that helped you "to dig deeper". You asked for and received the benefit of the community knowledge. Now you say you found something out that goes contrary to popular opinion or at the very least swung your opinion.

Don't you think you should share what you found out?

So yes you don't "owe" anyone anything, but why deprive others of the same courtesy afforded to you?

In addition to helping others understand in the same way you were helped, you may find that by sharing what you learned you may get some input on just how credible what you told was.





Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[bigfatpauli]

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate your comments and civility. I will level with you - sometimes, forums on the internet can be perhaps a bit slanted or biased to or away from certain brands and if a member goes against that grain they can be ostracised. I like this forum but I also realize I don't have the post count here that I have on another watch forum (tz) so I am new to this community. I don't want to jeopardise that as I know Journe is a well liked and respected brand here and they indeed make amazing watches. I am not saying that this community is like that (biased), I am saying that I am a newer member who does not have a good idea of the culture of Rolex Forums and as such I posted my last comment with great trepidation. It is also why my previous post was even more vague. Simply put, I don't want to step on any toes, offend anyone or stir the pot. Below are my own findings. Right or wrong, take them with a grain of salt: I am not a watch maker, I have never been to Journe nor have I met the man. I am just going by what I've heard or read. I can not vouch for the accuracy of any of it so take it for what it is worth.

So what happened?

Well, I am looking for a new daily wearer. Currently I typically wear my Breguet 5817 on a strap. It's sporty and casual enough for me but it also has a certain elegance to it. It was my first 'good' watch and to this day I love it. But as it goes with this hobby, you always want more. I wanted something more low key but still from a well respected brand. Patek, obviously, fits the bill of "well respected" and the 5146 with its slate gray dial is a nice wearable size, elegant but still a little sporty and has oodles of useful (for me) complications. Then I read the Hodinkee article about the Journe and the Chronometer Bleu caught my attention. The dark case and blue dial is unobtainable but I liked the watch so the CS in Platinum can be had for about the same as the Patek in Canada, so began my search. The Journe, with the guilloche dial and blued hands is much dressier than the Patek, but I love how under the radar Journe is as a brand. I don't believe many would recognize it unless they were a watch lover. So my inquiry was posted, but in all honestly, I was leaning towards the Patek at that time.

Then the community overwhelmingly felt the Journe was the way to go - And thank you for the guidance! I stared reading more posts here about Journe and became quite taken with the brand and styling. Those hands, man... Those are very special hands. I as hooked on Journe.

What raised an eyebrow of mine, however, were indeed two comments left here: the stamped dials and high amount of machine finishing. Neither of these are inherently bad but, for me, watch making at this level (read: price) isn't really about making a good well finished watch - we are well past that - it is about the romance. Honestly, I think this reigns true for many of us, and even if it doesn't, it does for me. Rolex, which we know has a large amount of machining, market that it takes a year to create one; implying the toil of a tireless Swiss watchmaker and the copious amount of care they spend making your watch. After all, machines are faster than people so no one would believe an all machine assembly would take a year. Anyway, my point is, that hand-craft is at the heart and soul of haute horlogerie and at the level of Journe something being hand made is important to me. Right or wrong, that's how I personally feel.

So I dug.

I PM'ed a few members here and on the other forum. What is the factory like? What is the process like? And over and over again it came back as highly automated with only certain details and finishes being made by hand. I suppose not too different than Patek (though, apparently Patek does more hand finishing than Journe, but I have no way of knowing exactly what that means). At the same time, I was digging around Patek, and it sounds like much of the work is again automated aside for their very high-end watches (tourbillions, repeaters, etc).

What also came back was that a few members have met or dealt with Mr. Journe himself and there was something that everyone seemed to slip in: arrogant or ego. I understand that he is a very successful and talented individual, but arrogance is not a quality I value. That arrogance is reflected down to his creations but more of that later.

I dug some more.

I called the one Canadian AD. They were very pleasant and prompt to deal with. The person at the AD was clearly passionate about watches (which is really nice!) and had a love for what she was selling. But, what I did discover, and this can happen with smaller brands (MB&F is a good example) is that Journe does not have a Canadian MSRP - the watch price is set on the exchange rate at the time it comes in. Again, not a big deal, and, I believe it is up the AD, but does cause the price of the watch to fluctuate a few thousand dollars; a few thousand dollars that I have to commit to before knowing the final price. IE, I have to buy the watch and put down a deposit while they order it and I won't know a final cost until it arrives. It happens, but it is a deterrent especially with today's dollar volatility. Finally, I would also have to fly to Vancouver (I live in Toronto) to make the deposit on the watch (that's their policy). This is a 5 hour flight each way, plus travel to and from the airports, plus the cost of staying there overnight, meals and, obviously the time commitment. It does add considerable cost and inconvenience to buying the watch.

But is that a deal breaker? If you love the watch, so what?

I felt more digging was needed.

The next issue is servicing. There was another person here on the forum (if I recall correctly) who was a fellow Canadian and wanted to get his Journe serviced and contacted the same AD about it. The issue was that when the AD ships the watch out, because they didn't sell the watch and therefor don't have the importation documents, he could be liable for duty on the value of the ENTIRE watch (not just the service cost) on its way home. For me, in Ontario, that would be in the neighbourhood of $5500 on top of the cost of servicing. This is a MAJOR concern - the AD has only been a Journe dealer for about a year and, let's face it, dealers change. I could be facing that fee if I don't have it serviced through them. Or not. But it is a risk and there is a real Journe owner right now in Canada facing that dilemma. It would also involve me having to get the watch to Vancouver for servicing which is a challenge again.

But wait, what if I have it serviced locally in Canada?

Good point. I did more yet digging. Let's see who can service a Journe in Canada.

I did some calling around and a few said they wouldn't touch it as it was too expensive/complicated - fine. One said he would - great. And finally, another said he wouldn't but also shed light as to why... I want to go back to the supposed ego that Mr. Journe allegedly has that I heard of earlier. We've all noticed the odd screws on the back - a sort of lock out system in an attempt to keep other watch makers out. To me, that's annoying and certainly bull headed, but fine. What this watchmaker said, and I can't confirm it but I also have no reason to doubt it, is that the hands on a Journe are tapered so that the metal gets thinner where it attached to the stem. This has no visual impact but what apparently happens is the hole in the hands is widened when the hands are removed so then when they are reinstalled they will not 'grip' the center post anymore. He said that you may be able to remove them once and be fine, but eventually they will fail and the only place to get new Journe hands, is Journe. This, typically, isn't really an issue as why bother removing the hands for a service, right? On the Chronometre Souverain the wheel train is under the movement forcing one to remove the dial, hence hands, to service the movement. I did read this somewhere else prior to my conversation with the watch maker but I can't for the life of my find it (it may have been in a PM). Again, this is something I cannot personally confirm but I have heard it from two separate sources.

To take deliberate steps, which I can't help feel this is the case if this is true, to force people to service it though Journe is not something I like. At any rate the odd screws are designed to keep others out. That, to me, is reflection of the ego of the culture of the company. Journe itself may not be around forever. What then?

Journe is a relatively new brand on a high right now: they are the new hot kid on the block. Perhaps an ego is warranted. But honeymoons end. There was a time when Chronoswiss had a bright future, too.

Now, you may be thinking, why would getting the watch to and from a different country be anymore of an issue for a Journe than it would be for, say Patek or Lange or any other European brand?

Good question. And I really don't know but it seems to be. When I had my USA bought Breguet serviced, I brought it to the Swatch head office here in Toronto and it was just the cost of servicing. Same for my Rolex watches. The same goes from JLC's. But here we have a real case of a Journe owner trying to get his watch serviced through an AD and that is the trouble he is running into and the AD confirmed what was going on. Fine.

So let's look at other examples I have personally experienced.

With my JLC, specifically, they do have a service center in Canada, however, I have an original 1958 Geophysic which is a bit more delicate to work with than a new watch. I dropped it off at a local JLC AD and they arranged to have it sent to JLC for me. The JLC service center here took one look at and quickly said that they would not touch it and it would have to go to Switzerland for servicing. The watch was purchased 50 years ago in Vienna so there are no import documents and I was not charged any duty, just the cost of servicing.

I bought my Lange in Paris. When I came home it was running quite fast so I sent an email to Lange. They called me from Germany and I even spoke to one of the Lange watchmakers who was very kind and helpful. They offered to arrange everything to get my watch to Alkis in NYC to have it timed, at no charge, but the watchmaker first suggested that I get the watch demagnetized. The Lange dealer here can't do that but Lange Germany contacted the Cartier boutique (same family) and arranged to have them do it on site for me. I live walking distance to the boutique and while I waited for them to demagnetize my watch and put in on a timing machine they entertained me by showing my Cariter's latest offerings. It fixed the issue and my watch has been working perfectly since.

My point is the difference in service... Journe can't really help this other fellow out, nor can the AD as he didn't purchase it there. In my case the Lange dealer here offered to work with Lange to get my watch to Alkis at no charge and Lange worked with another brand to help me. All for a watch I bought in a different country. JLC serviced my watch out of country with no issue through an AD I did not buy it from.

That is service you don't soon forget and it went a long way to building brand loyalty.

Again, I can't tell you why JLC and Lange don't have the issue of Federal duty on the value of the entire watch like Journe but this is the information I have as it stands from both talking to the AD, reading the posts of the other owner and personal experience.

So, in the end, the uncertainty about future servicing, a final cost of the watch, negative comments about the corporate culture and minimal hand finishing left me feeling that a Journe wasn't in the cards for me. When I compare the experience I had with Lange and what I've read and heard about the amount of hand work that goes into their watches it was a easy decision to stick with Lange. The sheer fact that one can identify which person did the engravings just by visual inspection speaks volume about them.

But why not go back to the Patek? It's still a great watch and the runner up!

Yes. Yes it is. From an amazing brand, no less.

Well, with all the thought of watches I did pop into my favorite local AD; I mean any excuse to go in is good excuse, right? "My" salesmen there is always a joy to see: he insists I have a bottled water, coffee or something else every time I go in. He always makes a special effort to walk me around the store and show me what's new. When I went in last time we finished the tour, as we seemingly always do, at the Lange counter. Out he pulls the platinum Lange 1 moon/day/night. Gasp. Here's a watch that really gets my heart pumping. It is a devastatingly beautiful watch; if you ever have the opportunity to try one on, you are depriving yourself by not ceasing the opportunity. I can not do it justice. WOW! Seems unemphatic when talking about this watch. Simply put, it is magnificent and briefly made my forget my own name.

I fell in love. Hard.

So I've fallen for another, I'm sorry, Patek. Honestly, seeing this Lange 1 would have made me forget about Journe no matter what I would have read about them.

Having said that, the Lange 1 is significantly more money than either the Patek or the Journe so I have to save my pennies a little longer before making the plunge, but that's the name of game and one of my virtues is patience. Plus, did I mention how stunning the Lange 1 is??!

There you have it; what happened.

Again, take it all with a grain of salt - I have no idea if anything that I found out about Journe is fact or fiction. Essentially, it is all hearsay. But it's all I have to go on. Please, I mean no offense to anyone with this post. I was asked about my findings so I posted them. I was hesitant in posting because it isn't necessarily the most favourable post about a beloved brand. If this offends anyone, I apologise, that was not my intent. It is just my meager findings and I hope it doesn't take anything away from any current or future Journe owners enjoyment of what, by all measures, makes wonderful watches that are supremely well finished and designed.

Warmest regards,

-Paul

[oldcarz]

Very well written and thoughtful response. Thank you for sharing. Good luck with the Lange 1 (it IS a gorgeous watch)