Vintage Rolex + laser welding = ?

[BobDyl]

Genuinely curious about this, so thought I'd put it out there. Seems like there is an unbelievable number of thick lugged, nearly perfect vintage pieces in the market these days. And we're talking watches that are 50 even 60+ years old. Watches that were never considered collectible back in the day so they were worn, used, abused (as they should have been). In my years of collecting I can't remember seeing such a large selection of seemingly "perfect" pieces.

So what is going on? Is there a motherload of perfectly kept vintage Rolex somewhere? Are they laser welded? Are they recased?

Gotta say I've never been more skeptical about the vintage market than I am today...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by BobDyl

Genuinely curious about this, so thought I'd put it out there. Seems like there is an unbelievable number of thick lugged, nearly perfect vintage pieces in the market these days. And we're talking watches that are 50 even 60+ years old. Watches that were never considered collectible back in the day so they were worn, used, abused (as they should have been). In my years of collecting I can't remember seeing such a large selection of seemingly "perfect" pieces.

So what is going on? Is there a motherload of perfectly kept vintage Rolex somewhere? Are they laser welded? Are they recased?

Gotta say I've never been more skeptical about the vintage market than I am today...

Laser welding and case recuts have been going on for awhile now. More people are aware of it these days. Personally, under a 10x loop, I can tell true unpolished factory cases from recut. There are many areas to inspect and not just the lugs, to find out if the piece has been recut.. In situations like LAWW case recuts, I don’t even need a loop to tell because I am very familiar with beau’s work and style.

I myself have not seen the stock pile of unpolished pieces you refer to. I do think with the amount of Rolex watches produced way back when, there were many people that were careful with their things and or purchased a Rolex to wear for special occasions and not an everyday watch; to where it might sit in a safe or sock drawer for years and never get serviced.

Rolex’s were still considered expensive back in the day so I personally feel that not everyone treated their watch as a tool watch. Same reason many of us are careful with our modern Rolex’s today. We are much more aware today obviously and times are different now, but hopefully you get my drift.

One more note to add. If a vintage case was redone that good to where it fooled me and the scrutiny I put these pieces under when I purchase, then I’m ok with it.. but that’s just me.

[harry in montreal]

Just buy watches that have wear to them. Cheaper. Legit. I enjoy my ratty rolexes. The beauty is that a beat up Rolex is still $5k+

[MorningTundra]

It seems case refinishing is the new case polishing. As technology has evolved, so have tastes. We used to want “shiny like new” after a service. Now we want “crisp and sharp like new”. There’s clearly strong demand for NOS-like cases with well worn dials and bezels. I suspect this fad will pass.


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[SubKing]

Originally Posted by MorningTundra

It seems case refinishing is the new case polishing. As technology has evolved, so have tastes. We used to want “shiny like new” after a service. Now we want “crisp and sharp like new”. There’s clearly strong demand for NOS-like cases with well worn dials and bezels. I suspect this fad will pass.


Sent from my cracked, broken hand wound phone. IG @morning_tundra

I don't think it's a fad at all.

It's just another level of restoration. I would rather have a squared up case looking sharp than an old worn case with round soft lugs from improper polishing.

It's just a matter of correcting something that was done improperly in the past.

However, I am all for leaving a vintage piece as is if the case is worn naturally from age.

[offrdmania]

Michael Young posted about doing exactly what you are talking about just yesterday.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Michael Young posted about doing exactly what you are talking about just yesterday.

He did a nice job.

However, it’s easy for me to tell that isn’t factory unpolished, that case looks restored.

I really don’t see how an LAWW or a M.Y. Case recut could fool people into thinking the case is unpolished? Maybe if the person interested isnt experienced in vintage, then I could see that happening.

Not to say LAWW or M.Y. Work isn’t fantastic, it’s the best and closest you will get to factory for sure.

[BobDyl]

I have nothing against nicely recut cases or even laser-welding particularly. I do wonder at the quantity of these pieces being offered as "unpolished." Seems endemic.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by BobDyl

I have nothing against nicely recut cases or even laser-welding particularly. I do wonder at the quantity of these pieces being offered as "unpolished." Seems endemic.

it would take a real novice to believe these are unpolished.

I personally have not seen where these are being offered as unpolished? Then again I only shop with legitimate dealers and they always advertise when a watch has been recut. Now, if there is someone out there who is doing better work than LAWW, I would love to meet them and shake their hand. Then I would start to worry as well.

[BobDyl]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I personally have not seen where these are being offered as unpolished?

You're kidding, right? Try a search in the for sale section for "unpolished"!

I think if I start to name names, the thread could get ugly, so I won't, but also go ahead and take a look at many "legitimate" dealer sites - full of "unpolished," "likely never polished," "original bevels" hoo ha.

The point I'm trying to make is that in 20 years of collecting, I personally have never seen so many suspiciously perfect vintage Rolex. And if anything the supply should be decreasing. You're saying you don't see it, that's fine, we can agree to disagree there...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by BobDyl

You're kidding, right? Try a search in the for sale section for "unpolished"!

I think if I start to name names, the thread could get ugly, so I won't, but also go ahead and take a look at many "legitimate" dealer sites - full of "unpolished," "likely never polished," "original bevels" hoo ha.

The point I'm trying to make is that in 20 years of collecting, I personally have never seen so many suspiciously perfect vintage Rolex. And if anything the supply should be decreasing. You're saying you don't see it, that's fine, we can agree to disagree there...

No, i'm not kidding actually. Like I said, the dealers I deal with don't play those games... If you're referring to pieces that are currently on sale here on TRF being advertised as such, please shoot me a pm so I can give them a look.

if you been collecting for 20 years bob, then you should know a recut case when you see one..

Only beginners would fall for that one if someone listed a recut piece as unpolished and they believed them..

again, for me, a recut case is easy to spot.

For a watch to be passed off as "never polished" the overall patina of the case would have to match...

[BobDyl]

Originally Posted by SubKing

No, i'm not kidding actually. Like I said, the dealers I deal with don't play those games... If you're referring to pieces that are currently on sale here on TRF being advertised as such, please shoot me a pm so I can give them a look.

if you been collecting for 20 years bob, then you should know a recut case when you see one..

Only beginners would fall for that one if someone listed a recut piece as unpolished and they believed them..

again, for me, a recut case is easy to spot.

For a watch to be passed off as "never polished" the overall patina of the case would have to match...

Sub King - you are truly an expert ... in your own mind. You've completely missed the point of the thread, and turned it into something about spotting recut cases. Muting you now, best of luck...

[05carbondrz]

If you’ve held a real unpolished Vintage Sub/GMT You can spot the recuts instantly.

[BobDyl]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

If you’ve held a real unpolished Vintage Sub/GMT You can spot the recuts instantly.

Subking (now muted for me) essentially hijacked the thread and turned my original question into something about recuts which, apparently, he is quite the expert in spotting. Let's all please agree that recuts are easy to spot. My point is more about recased and possibly laser welded pieces, and the larger point that it seems unlikely that the inventory of perfect pieces from the 60s and 70s could increase which, it is my prima facie contention, is the case.

[springer]

I'm going to make one comment so this doesn't get too far off topic and that will be it. From Florida, to NYC to California and many points in between, there are plenty of sellers/dealers selling these "faux unpolished" watches. Not only "unpolished" but with fake cases. Many of the sellers have no clue what an unpolished watch is but some do. They are salesman and once you understand that concept it is easy to understand why so many are claimed to be "unpolished."

Below are some photos of an unpolished GMT-MASTER 16750 and one photo of my 1977 unpolished GMT-MASTER 1675.

[BobDyl]

Originally Posted by springer

I'm going to make one comment and that will be it. There are plenty of sellers/dealers selling these "faux unpolished" watches. Not only "unpolished" but with fake cases. From Florida, to NYC to California and many points in between. Many of the sellers have no clue what an unpolished watch is but some do. They are salesman and once you understand that concept it is easy to understand why so many are claimed to be "unpolished."

Agree 100%, particularly wrt fake cases, I see them all over the place (fake or recased)... seems that as the value of these pieces increases hugely, particularly over the past 5-10 years, so does the number of fakes.

Great reference shots btw. I realize there's some variation even from the factory given hand finishing but that is pristine.

[SLS]

Originally Posted by BobDyl

Genuinely curious about this, so thought I'd put it out there. Seems like there is an unbelievable number of thick lugged, nearly perfect vintage pieces in the market these days. And we're talking watches that are 50 even 60+ years old. Watches that were never considered collectible back in the day so they were worn, used, abused (as they should have been). In my years of collecting I can't remember seeing such a large selection of seemingly "perfect" pieces.

So what is going on? Is there a motherload of perfectly kept vintage Rolex somewhere? Are they laser welded? Are they recased?

Gotta say I've never been more skeptical about the vintage market than I am today...

I have to say that I have noticed a lot more of what appears to be laser welded cases. I am truly not an expert on this, but the relatively clean chamfers (like in the MY photos above) seem to be a pretty good indicator that work has been done.

On the flip side, it is nice to know that massive dings can be repaired if one chooses to go that route.

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by BobDyl

Subking (now muted for me) essentially hijacked the thread and turned my original question into something about recuts which, apparently, he is quite the expert in spotting. Let's all please agree that recuts are easy to spot. My point is more about recased and possibly laser welded pieces, and the larger point that it seems unlikely that the inventory of perfect pieces from the 60s and 70s could increase which, it is my prima facie contention, is the case.

Sorry,I can tell you that truly unpolished Cases are few and far between.Anytime a certain feature brings more Money(Rare Dial,unpolished,faded Insert) there will be scammers looking to take advantage of new Buyers.

[BobDyl]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

Sorry,I can tell you that truly unpolished Cases are few and far between.Anytime a certain feature brings more Money(Rare Dial,unpolished,faded Insert) there will be scammers looking to take advantage of new Buyers.

This is my suspicion as well. I think that although the dial remains paramount in terms of determining overall quality, there's been a shift towards case and lug condition being more equally weighted with the dial, with all that entails...

[BNABOD]

As long as advertised then I am ok w it. Indo not like vintage watches that went through a garbage disposal like this one. Apparently it is unpolished but I think it looks like dog sh$$ so go ahead laser weld and make it look decent. Now I do agree that when the case is pristine looking and the rest is w a faded insert, spidered dial then yeah a refinished case would look odd.

[05carbondrz]

More true unpolished Case Pics:

[Mik8yu]

Originally Posted by springer

I'm going to make one comment so this doesn't get too far off topic and that will be it. From Florida, to NYC to California and many points in between, there are plenty of sellers/dealers selling these "faux unpolished" watches. Not only "unpolished" but with fake cases. Many of the sellers have no clue what an unpolished watch is but some do. They are salesman and once you understand that concept it is easy to understand why so many are claimed to be "unpolished."

Below are some photos of an unpolished GMT-MASTER 16750 and one photo of my 1977 unpolished GMT-MASTER 1675.

Beautiful sample John.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BobDyl]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

More true unpolished Case Pics:

You positive? Some of those chamfers getting awfully close to the lug holes...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by BobDyl

Genuinely curious about this, so thought I'd put it out there. Seems like there is an unbelievable number of thick lugged, nearly perfect vintage pieces in the market these days. And we're talking watches that are 50 even 60+ years old. Watches that were never considered collectible back in the day so they were worn, used, abused (as they should have been). In my years of collecting I can't remember seeing such a large selection of seemingly "perfect" pieces.

So what is going on? Is there a motherload of perfectly kept vintage Rolex somewhere? Are they laser welded? Are they recased?

Gotta say I've never been more skeptical about the vintage market than I am today...

Originally Posted by BobDyl

Subking (now muted for me) essentially hijacked the thread and turned my original question into something about recuts which, apparently, he is quite the expert in spotting. Let's all please agree that recuts are easy to spot. My point is more about recased and possibly laser welded pieces, and the larger point that it seems unlikely that the inventory of perfect pieces from the 60s and 70s could increase which, it is my prima facie contention, is the case.

Not sure why you are so hostile? I think you need to tone it down and stop getting so angry.

Laser welded cases are recut after they are welded genius.. so recut cases have everything to do with your thread.

I would also like to say that chamfer sizes differ from different years... chamfers are wider on 50’s 60’s and early 70’s sports models when compared to late 70’s on up case chamfers.

20 years of collecting as you bragged about and you start a thread like this? Talking about nearly perfect pieces and how skeptical you are? As I tried to point out before you flipped out and started your attack towards me. Any seasoned collector can spot a laser welded case that has been recut. That end result would give you that “nearly perfect thick lugged case” you keep speaking of.

Clearly it’s hard for you to differentiate a factory case from a restore one.

[R.O.L.E.X]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Michael Young posted about doing exactly what you are talking about just yesterday.

It's interesting how they redo the chamfers a lot wider than factory.

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by BobDyl

You positive? Some of those chamfers getting awfully close to the lug holes...

I’m dead positive.

[Throttle]

I would honestly prefer a vintage Rolex to look vintage then a NOS.
I still wear my vintage Rolexes as beaters and would not be bothered if they “suffered” normal wearing scratches in their line of duty.

Laser weld ?
Recut?
Preferably not unless it is a case of really serious damage

[scooba]

Rolex Kingshill UK have a lazer welder and use it on repairs like dings but don't use it to rebuild Lugs ,

I have a super skinny 16610 that I have owned for 25 yrs and they kindly polished it twice at service and it looks so skinny now I no longer wear it .

Having spoken to the Big Boss in the Rolex Dept he said we can't rebuild lugs on 316/904 cases but with Gold its different so I guess gold can be rebuilt , with regards my case he suggested recase it .

[CaveDweller]

I think this is directed by “demand”, now that it has become fashionable to have an “unpolished” case. As long as people think their watch is worth more or becomes more “desirable” with thick lugs, there will be a demand for case restoration.

Whether this makes the watch more valuable is a matter of opinion – but it could account for the perception that there are more good cases on vintage than there realistically should be.

To me, either its original or it’s not. As has been said, what’s with having a re-cut case on a vintage dial – just looks “odd”

We have only ourselves to blame of course – when you specify an untouched original dial exhibiting a rich patina and a (supposedly) “unpolished” case, by hook or by crook that’s what they’ll give you – except that the case won’t have any signs of age to it at all, which rather defeats the point

If you’re going to restore the watch, then do the whole thing or leave it alone …..

[MorningTundra]

Put a recut case (masking tape on the back) in a bag with some grit and put it in the tumble dryer and you can achieve a pretty authentic patina...


Sent from my cracked, broken hand wound phone. IG @morning_tundra