Your kind advice needed on that Pepsi 1675, please

[Lonestar19]

Dear RF Vintage experts, i would love to have your opinion about the following MkII-dialed, low 5M s/n.

Case has obviously been refinished - albeit to what appears like high standards to my untrained (in-training...) eye.

Your assessment and comments are most welcome before I think about possibly pulling the trigger.

thank you all,

Paul

[Lonestar19]

and a couple more pics... thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.

Best Regards,

Paul

[waspy1]

Looks fantastic and I’d be all over that like a rash if I was looking for a nice 1675.


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[dhknola]

I am far from an expert but case looks too good, possible laser recut?

[brandonwahl]

The MK2 dial variation would originally be found on a case with a much lower serial number. Each buyer has to decide what matters to them in terms of originality/period correctness, but make sure the price is adjusted accordingly for this.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by brandonwahl

The MK2 dial variation would originally be found on a case with a much lower serial number. Each buyer has to decide what matters to them in terms of originality/period correctness, but make sure the price is adjusted accordingly for this.

I’m far from an expert on these late watches but there are quite a few examples of 5 mil serials which have had the mk2 dial. Doesn’t necessarily make much sense but it is what it is.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=240756

Looks like a very nice watch to me.

[springer]

Originally Posted by brandonwahl

The MK2 dial variation would originally be found on a case with a much lower serial number. Each buyer has to decide what matters to them in terms of originality/period correctness, but make sure the price is adjusted accordingly for this.

X2. I would expect a Mark IV or even a Mark III or Mark V in the 5.1 million serial range. Mark II is probable but not considered correct by most.

There seems to be several GMTs being offered for sale lately with incorrect dials based on the serial number.

[Lonestar19]

Thank you all for the input. There is indeed some controversy on whether a MkII dial is at the right place on a 5.1M s/n, but there are some sources that indicate that although there are only so many of them, there do exist.

For instance, here:

https://gmtmaster1675.com/mark-2/

Serial Number Range: 28xxxxx-39xxxxx, 505xxxx-519xxxx*


*There have been several original owner examples with Mark 2 dials and low 5 million SN’s in this range. It is possible that Rolex used some left over MK2 dials in these cases. Some have said that this was a service dial used in that period but that would only make sense if those watches had a service case and not a service dial as, if it had a Mk 2 as a service dial, it would be on serial numbers earlier than the normal dial/SN rage (i.e. you have an earlier dial that was replaced with a MK2 at service). That is not the case here and if they were service cases why would they all have MK2 dials – we would have probably seen a variety of earlier dials and we do not have any knowledge of this range being used as a service case (though sure, it’s possible). This is a syllogism and not proof positive though, so look to the merits of the watch and not only my conjecture.

[Lonestar19]

The case has obviously been refinished as mentionned. I find it appealing, at least it's an obvious recase job and a nice one as opposed to a botched, dishonest one.

The dial (if we put aside the MkII vs. S/N debae) and insert look legit to me, but I would welcome your further impressions.

The asking price is almost 16'000USD - what are your thoughts?

Thank you,

Paul

[roh123]

Sounds fair to me. I wouldn’t worry about the mk2 dial as this is well researched and accepted. Some might not agree but there are enough cases to see that it is not a coincidence.

[Tom1675]

Originally Posted by Lonestar19

The case has obviously been refinished as mentionned. I find it appealing, at least it's an obvious recase job and a nice one as opposed to a botched, dishonest one.

The dial (if we put aside the MkII vs. S/N debae) and insert look legit to me, but I would welcome your further impressions.

The asking price is almost 16'000USD - what are your thoughts?

Thank you,

Paul

$16k is the price for an all-original 1675, or at least a completely correct one... For this one we haven't even seen the caseback, bracelet, clasp date, end links or movement... And lets face it, was this a service case or a replaced dial? Who knows -and therefore I don't even know how to properly scrutinize this watch.

To your question, if we are looking at If the dial/serial/case issue that's been discussed as the only non-original issue I would say $16k is too much.

But hey, 6 months ago I would have said $14k is too much!

[Lonestar19]

Thank you all for your input. This is very useful and much appreciated.

Thank you to RF and the whole community for this fantastic place where newbies can learn without apprehension.

Regards,

Paul

[springer]

Originally Posted by Lonestar19

Thank you all for the input. There is indeed some controversy on whether a MkII dial is at the right place on a 5.1M s/n, but there are some sources that indicate that although there are only so many of them, there do exist.

For instance, here:

https://gmtmaster1675.com/mark-2/

Serial Number Range: 28xxxxx-39xxxxx, 505xxxx-519xxxx*


*There have been several original owner examples with Mark 2 dials and low 5 million SN’s in this range. It is possible that Rolex used some left over MK2 dials in these cases. Some have said that this was a service dial used in that period but that would only make sense if those watches had a service case and not a service dial as, if it had a Mk 2 as a service dial, it would be on serial numbers earlier than the normal dial/SN rage (i.e. you have an earlier dial that was replaced with a MK2 at service). That is not the case here and if they were service cases why would they all have MK2 dials – we would have probably seen a variety of earlier dials and we do not have any knowledge of this range being used as a service case (though sure, it’s possible). This is a syllogism and not proof positive though, so look to the merits of the watch and not only my conjecture.

__________________________________________________ ________

I have seen that on the web site regarding the production years for the Mark II dials.

There is also the following information at the same web site regarding the Mark IV dials:

*the established serial range on these is the 4.1 to 5.8 million serial range, however several examples with the earlier 3.2 and 3.3 million cases have been seen. As with everything else, assume that the established SN range is correct unless you know where the watch is coming from and trust the seller. The serial range on the Mark 4 is the widest encountered (multiple examples into the high five million range are seen) so I would not be surprised if it totally overlapped the Mark 5.



If the asterisked years of production were true for the Mark IV dials, examples with Mark IV dials as early as 3.2 million serial numbers were being used from 1971 until close to the end of production. Personally, I do not agree with this and would like to know where this information originated from along with the information on the web site regarding the production years for the Mark II dials which, if produced from 1970 until the 5.1 million serial number range, would extend it for a few years past the normally accepted range for Mark II dials.

I'm not buying into all these "exceptions."

[Lonestar19]

John, I understand the point. It is a bit of a grey zone for sure.

Thank you all again for trying to help.

Best Regards,

Paul

[brandonwahl]

The price you have listed seems high today, but in a few years it might seem like a steal. Vintage Rolex is crazy. I'm currently fighting a battle on this myself as I look to purchase a tritium dial Speedy. Thanks to everyone who made opposite suggestions about my Mk2 serial range comment. I researched for about a year before buying my 5.6 serial 1675 back in 2016, but I am certainly no expert on this. I've seen a nice appreciation on the price I paid but have no plans on selling.

[springer]

Originally Posted by roh123

Sounds fair to me. I wouldn’t worry about the mk2 dial as this is well researched and accepted. Some might not agree but there are enough cases to see that it is not a coincidence.

There are also many examples of GMT 1675s from the late 1960s during the Mark I dial era that have Mark V dials but that doesn't mean they are correct.

Maybe the Mark IIs aren't coincidence in the later cases, maybe they are, but it is a recent phenomenon.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by springer

There are also many examples of GMT 1675s from the late 1960s during the Mark I dial era that have Mark V dials but that doesn't mean they are correct.

Maybe the Mark IIs aren't coincidence in the later cases, maybe they are, but it is a recent phenomenon.

It makes more sense to see later dials in an early case than the opposite. Sometimes dials are changed when needed and then the current (later) dial was used.

What is peculiar with the mk2’s in the 5mil range is that we basically only see these kind of systematically in this range. They don’t pop up in other specific range and we do not see ie mk1’s here. It is an anomaly but we have too many sightings with mk2’s for me to believe it is just a coincidence. There are other examples where Rolex/Tudor used old stock much later for some models. Check how Tudor pushed out the last batch snowflakes with 15xxx serial in the 80’s where they all had early 70’s mk3 inserts. Something very specific for only this batch.

I might be wrong but I have been seeing way to many examples over the years to just discard them. Why would all these mk2 dials just come up in the early 5 mil serial range? Makes no sense to me. That said the normal dial in this range should be something more time correct.

Each to their own of course. Before anyone thinks this is something new; google it and find threads going back almost ten years. This have been debated before. Who knows what is right? Some believe in it. Some don’t.

[jdmi32]

All depends on the price. The period-correctness of the dial should affect the price somewhat, but the overall package looks wonderful.