Did I get scammed?

[codecow]

If it’s not vintage, a Patek is generally going to have at least papers but I’d expect a full set.

There’s nothing wrong with getting pre-owned pieces and I wouldn’t hesitate to buy from the large TS folks here, have bought and sold from/to DavidSW as an example.

I don’t know the shop in question but if they don’t even know what they’re selling that is a major red flag.

[Chiboy]

It seems like the seller is trying to work with you. However, at this point it would take too much and take too long to make you comfortable with the watch. This should be a joyous experience. It doesn't seem like this one is. Get a refund, and start from scratch. If seller, who seems to want to earn your business, finds the right watch for you, with papers and pictures that don't concern you, buy it from him. If not, buy one elsewhere.

[B01fan]

One thing to bear in mind is that after a certain number of polishes (or if they feel that any further polishing would compromise the aesthetics of the case too much) then Patek will refuse to polish, and will only clean the case as best as possible. In short, never assume that they can fix an overly polished or badly polished watch.

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

I’d never buy a watch naked unless I had a nice pair of slacks nearby.

Hehe

[Gebbeth]

I'm a little late to this party. Given what happened recently with that Philips auction of the fake Speedmaster, I'm actually not shocked that even the most well respected reseller/secondary market seller could get something wrong with a watch....or worse yet, didn't really care about authenticity so long as they could make a sale.

My guess is that this is a franken-watch of some kind, and I'm not sure I would feel comfortable with that.

Could you even trust that they in fact will send it to Patek?

A high end watch like this shouldn't come with big doubts. I'd call off the sale and ask for the money back.

I'm a little concerned though for the OP as the fact that Phigora didn't immediately apologize and cancel the sale seems to suggest they will push very hard to force the sale, which makes me think they too don't want to deal with having bought a suspect watch they can really no longer offer for sale. This will end up a sunk cost for them and irrecoverable...unless they do the dishonest thing and try to sell the watch to someone who isn't so discerning.

[codecow]

That’s what I mean. In terms of the shop either:

1. They can’t tell a real watch from junk - bad
2. They can tell a real watch from junk, and they’re selling junk - bad

I can’t think of any other option where they’re coming out looking reasonable.

I guess the 3rd option is we’re all stupid and it’s a fine example.

[Fleetlord]

Pass. Just buy a proper one elsewhere.

[dlmocdm]

I agree that the seller's behavior is quite bad. At least they lied in two ways:

1. Authentication: They claim they properly authenticate their watches, so there shouldn't be any doubt here. If this is indeed an original dial variation, they should be able to explain it, leaving no open question. The fact they suggested sending to Patek or procuring a new one, means they also have doubts... they failed to authenticate, yet listed it as an authentic watch, with a certificate of authenticity.
2. Condition assessment: They provide an assessment of the condition of the watch. In my mind, that means, at least, a visual inspection of the movement, checking that the watch winds properly, checking the power reserve of the watch, checking is waterproof to the listed specifications, checking the dial (surface as well as markers, luming, etc). They listed the condition of this watch as very good. Yet, the lume is missing (which you would obviously notice it if you examine it in the dark), and also very worrisome, there seem to be particulate matter in the movement. How can dust get inside the movement in a waterproof watch? The condition of this watch is definitely NOT "very good".

Yet, they claim: "All our certified pre-owned watches go through a meticulous inspection and servicing process. Additionally, every Phigora watch comes with a certificate of authenticity and a warranty card, so you can trust that you’re wearing a high-quality watch that will last."

So they lie about their authentication and condition assessment, and their solution is to leave their client without a watch for months after accepting payment? It is bad no matter how you look at it.

[Kreyzhorse]

I'm hoping that this is just an error of some kind without this being a malicious attempt to sell a fake watch.

That said, the seller is willing to work with you, but having it serviced while they hold your money isn't a great option.

I'd get a refund and start again if you have doubts.

[norcalgt3]

Ask for refund

[dchang81]

I guess my question is how is everyone so sure this is fake besides a Google search for images? I do agree that if the buyer has doubts then I'd void the transaction. I don't know how people keep track of dial variations, the 5711 had 3 different movements, Geneva vs patek seal, slight variation on the dial, change from screws to pins etc, there are all these different iterations I don't know how people can catalog them. shoot, need someone like Tim Mosso whos seen a bunch variations to chime in.

[codecow]

I have a 5146J and mine has lume.

[dlmocdm]

Originally Posted by dchang81

I guess my question is how is everyone so sure this is fake besides a Google search for images? I do agree that if the buyer has doubts then I'd void the transaction. I don't know how people keep track of dial variations, the 5711 had 3 different movements, Geneva vs patek seal, slight variation on the dial, change from screws to pins etc, there are all these different iterations I don't know how people can catalog them. shoot, need someone like Tim Mosso whos seen a bunch variations to chime in.

First, because you can use Wayback Machine and see that the dial has always been lumed. More importantly, because I don't think this would fall under a dial variation. The hour and minute hands are lumed, but without the hour/minute markers being lumed as well, there would be no way to tell the time in the darkness, which defeats the purpose of any lume to begin with. You need something to reference the hour and minute hands against.

But I could be wrong. Maybe it is indeed an original variation. In that case, the seller should be knowledgeable about it, as part of the advertised top-notch authentication process. They should be able to articulate why that dial has no lume, when it was produced, etc.

The fact that the OP has to go to a forum to ask about this, instead of being informed about it by the seller, that is the red flag.

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Update:

I agree with all of the criticism of Phigora, and this is at best a "trust but verify" type situation now.

The watch is going to Patek for full servicing, including case, at Phigora's cost. I will be provided all documentation from Patek regarding what work is to be done.

I can decline the watch at any point. If I accept it, it'll be sent to me sealed.

This is far from an ideal way of buying a watch, but I believe that in the end, I'll have an unquestionably authentic watch in freshly serviced condition.

If there is a flaw to my logic, please let me know.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Update:

I agree with all of the criticism of Phigora, and this is at best a "trust but verify" type situation now.

The watch is going to Patek for full servicing, including case, at Phigora's cost. I will be provided all documentation from Patek regarding what work is to be done.

I can decline the watch at any point. If I accept it, it'll be sent to me sealed.

This is far from an ideal way of buying a watch, but I believe that in the end, I'll have an unquestionably authentic watch in freshly serviced condition.

If there is a flaw to my logic, please let me know.

If its going to Patek and documented that it has been serviced by them, you are essentially getting a new watch when it comes back. Albeit not an ideal situation, I think its a win for you in the end if this is in fact the reference you really want.

[Bmats]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Update:

I agree with all of the criticism of Phigora, and this is at best a "trust but verify" type situation now.

The watch is going to Patek for full servicing, including case, at Phigora's cost. I will be provided all documentation from Patek regarding what work is to be done.

I can decline the watch at any point. If I accept it, it'll be sent to me sealed.

This is far from an ideal way of buying a watch, but I believe that in the end, I'll have an unquestionably authentic watch in freshly serviced condition.

If there is a flaw to my logic, please let me know.

It will be interesting to see what Patek does to the watch during the service.

The one thing to note is what someone else posted above. Patek will refuse to polish at a certain point if they believe a watch has been polished too much and can’t handle more — they did that on my fathers piece when I got it, even though it didn’t seem that polished to me. Now this one may or may not be well away from that point (and I suppose you just could reject) but that is a possibility.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Update:

I agree with all of the criticism of Phigora, and this is at best a "trust but verify" type situation now.

The watch is going to Patek for full servicing, including case, at Phigora's cost. I will be provided all documentation from Patek regarding what work is to be done.

I can decline the watch at any point. If I accept it, it'll be sent to me sealed.

This is far from an ideal way of buying a watch, but I believe that in the end, I'll have an unquestionably authentic watch in freshly serviced condition.

If there is a flaw to my logic, please let me know.

I don’t believe there is a flaw in that logic. Please come back and let us know how it ended up.

I shouldn’t presume, but is Phigora OK footing the bill for parts if Patek demands replacing them? As you know we discussed the dial, and others mentioned different things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by 77T

I don’t believe there is a flaw in that logic. Please come back and let us know how it ended up.

I shouldn’t presume, but is Phigora OK footing the bill for parts if Patek demands replacing them? As you know we discussed the dial, and others mentioned different things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I think this whole experience exemplifies the danger with presuming anything!

Phigora will pay for everything Patek says needs to be done to the watch. I will though continue to have the right to refuse it, for example if this turns into The Ship of Theseus.

[codecow]

I mean you don’t even know if they’re sending the same watch right?

[Watchdoyouwant?]

Originally Posted by codecow

I mean you don’t even know if they’re sending the same watch right?

It’ll be sealed, and I can check serial numbers against the Patek work order.

That’d be pretty hard to fake I assume.

[codecow]

Yeah sure I just mean in terms of the shady dealer (or not) you don’t have any of that info for what you bought do you? So they could get a real watch and send that in and send it back, or just buy one that is still sealed from service.

[ExplorerI]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Update:

I agree with all of the criticism of Phigora, and this is at best a "trust but verify" type situation now.

The watch is going to Patek for full servicing, including case, at Phigora's cost. I will be provided all documentation from Patek regarding what work is to be done.

I can decline the watch at any point. If I accept it, it'll be sent to me sealed.

This is far from an ideal way of buying a watch, but I believe that in the end, I'll have an unquestionably authentic watch in freshly serviced condition.

If there is a flaw to my logic, please let me know.

I might be in the minority here but it’s impossible for a company like Phigora to be an expert on every dial configuration on all of the hundreds of watches they sell through there. It seems like they’ve gone above and beyond on this and will likely lose money on this watch after paying for service.

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Update:

I agree with all of the criticism of Phigora, and this is at best a "trust but verify" type situation now.

The watch is going to Patek for full servicing, including case, at Phigora's cost. I will be provided all documentation from Patek regarding what work is to be done.

I can decline the watch at any point. If I accept it, it'll be sent to me sealed.

This is far from an ideal way of buying a watch, but I believe that in the end, I'll have an unquestionably authentic watch in freshly serviced condition.

If there is a flaw to my logic, please let me know.

if you agree with the criticism of phigora not sure why you don't just void the deal. don't know anything about phigora, but I really don't get how using Google cache as a way to know all the variations of the 5146p makes sense, there are plenty of references I had no idea existed. I guess one could just contact patek to see if that was ever made without lume.

[Ichiran]

Why don't you bring the watch to Patek Service Center for authentication? It's 1 to 2 hour job and cost $100+ only. If it is certified fake you can return the watch to the dealer?

[watchaser]

If this is a piece you really want, I think you’ve got a couple options here. If the price doesn’t change, I would personally have them send it in for service and verification vs having authenticity verified at a certified watch maker then purchasing it at the same price.

I was at a Patek boutique inquiring service on my 5980 and it’s 6-8 weeks out. Time with no watch is something I would consider as well.

[squall1]

Honestly, they need to do that anyway at this point. I'd have my money back while I was waiting. Why give them an interest free loan to sort out something they "guarantee"?

They must suspect something may be off, otherwise why do this? If so, they should be doing it anyway, even if you refuse and ask for your money back. If they don't and it goes straight back onto the website for sale, well, not a good look.

Ask them to return your money in the meantime and offer first right of refusal against whatever comes back from Patek.

[Tom V]

What would Patek do if a fake or frankenstein watch is sent for servicing?

[Kreyzhorse]

If you can live with the watch being out for 8 weeks, I don't see a flaw in your thinking. It certainly sounds like the dealer is trying to do the correct thing for you.

[1William]

Originally Posted by Watchdoyouwant?

Update:

I agree with all of the criticism of Phigora, and this is at best a "trust but verify" type situation now.

The watch is going to Patek for full servicing, including case, at Phigora's cost. I will be provided all documentation from Patek regarding what work is to be done.

I can decline the watch at any point. If I accept it, it'll be sent to me sealed.

This is far from an ideal way of buying a watch, but I believe that in the end, I'll have an unquestionably authentic watch in freshly serviced condition.

If there is a flaw to my logic, please let me know.

I would ask for a full refund while the watch is gone. They need to submit it anyway to make it right. You are just underwriting the mistake they made. If it makes it back and all is good you can then hand over the funds and get the watch. Too many things can happen during the time that the watch is gone. Business can close, watch could require a trip to the main factory, other issues. You also seem to be trying too hard to make this work. There are so many watches out there why get tied into one with the issues you have had? This still has a lot of potential to go bad. Take a step back, get your money and wait. Just my thoughts.

[77T]

Originally Posted by 1William

Too many things can happen during the time that the watch is gone. Business can close, watch could require a trip to the main factory, other issues.

That’s a fair point to plug into the algorithm for anyone in this situation or a similar one. Risk is on the buyer the whole time.


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