The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum > Other (non-Rolex) Watch Topics > Patek Philippe Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 25 June 2020, 05:11 PM   #31
Russell996
2024 Pledge Member
 
Russell996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 4,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinr View Post
So if a movement is triple assembled it’s better than double assembled? At what point is the finishing good enough? Basically finishing is some guy hunched over a workbench with a buff stick or tool rubbing it back and forth on a tiny piece of metal, usually on the edge. And without a powerful loupe or a macro lens and a blown up photo it’s practically impossible to tell how “good” it is.
Double assembly is the highest level of finishing, a two part process is considered optimal for good reason. During the first assembly the parts are made and test fitted including oiling and accuracy testing. Everything that was used to assemble (screws etc) is sacrificial and once the watch maker is happy that everything is fully functional and up to spec, the piece is disassembled, all parts are cleaned and then everything is reassembled with new screws and oiled. During this final assembly the very best levels of finishing can be carried out as everything is now about the finish. Only one watchmaker in the high grand complications department works on the piece during this final assembly and is responsible for completely finishing the piece.
You ask the question about triple assembly, the answer is it would achieve nothing since the two part process covers first the mechanical aspects of the piece and second the finish of the piece, a third assembly would not add anything and indeed is likely to introduce issues. Lange famously double assemble all their pieces, this does give a great base level of finish across the range but isn’t quite the same process that Patek follows with it’s double assembled pieces.
As to whether this extra level of finishing is worth it, well that is up to the prospective owner to decide based on their view on the importance of the finish and of course budget.
Russell996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25 June 2020, 07:08 PM   #32
Tjaeng
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Europe
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell996 View Post
Double assembly is the highest level of finishing, a two part process is considered optimal for good reason. During the first assembly the parts are made and test fitted including oiling and accuracy testing. Everything that was used to assemble (screws etc) is sacrificial and once the watch maker is happy that everything is fully functional and up to spec, the piece is disassembled, all parts are cleaned and then everything is reassembled with new screws and oiled. During this final assembly the very best levels of finishing can be carried out as everything is now about the finish. Only one watchmaker in the high grand complications department works on the piece during this final assembly and is responsible for completely finishing the piece.
You ask the question about triple assembly, the answer is it would achieve nothing since the two part process covers first the mechanical aspects of the piece and second the finish of the piece, a third assembly would not add anything and indeed is likely to introduce issues. Lange famously double assemble all their pieces, this does give a great base level of finish across the range but isn’t quite the same process that Patek follows with it’s double assembled pieces.
As to whether this extra level of finishing is worth it, well that is up to the prospective owner to decide based on their view on the importance of the finish and of course budget.
So... this is the double assembly process that Lange supposedly uses for $15K Saxonias? But Patek can’t be bothered to do on pieces for which they charge x5? Slight differences as mentioned notwithstanding.
Tjaeng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25 June 2020, 10:32 PM   #33
Russell996
2024 Pledge Member
 
Russell996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 4,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjaeng View Post
So... this is the double assembly process that Lange supposedly uses for $15K Saxonias? But Patek can’t be bothered to do on pieces for which they charge x5? Slight differences as mentioned notwithstanding.
Well as always the devil is in the detail - not all double assemblies are the same just as not all single assemblies are the same. But I think is is very fair to say Lange does double assemble everything and that all the movements are wonderful quality. I believe they are unique in the watch world in doing this double assembly on all their pieces (small independents not withstanding). As to what this means in reality compared to PP, VC and AP, well that will depend on the models you are comparing and I would still hazard to suggest that the finishing quality on a base Saxonia will differ quite a lot from that on a Tourbograph Perpetual 'Pour le Merite'.
There are many things that contribute to the movement quality, but having owned many great pieces I've never been disappointed by any PP or Lange.
Russell996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 June 2020, 02:53 AM   #34
martinr
"TRF" Member
 
martinr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: California
Posts: 3,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell996 View Post
Double assembly is the highest level of finishing, a two part process is considered optimal for good reason. During the first assembly the parts are made and test fitted including oiling and accuracy testing. Everything that was used to assemble (screws etc) is sacrificial and once the watch maker is happy that everything is fully functional and up to spec, the piece is disassembled, all parts are cleaned and then everything is reassembled with new screws and oiled. During this final assembly the very best levels of finishing can be carried out as everything is now about the finish. Only one watchmaker in the high grand complications department works on the piece during this final assembly and is responsible for completely finishing the piece.
You ask the question about triple assembly, the answer is it would achieve nothing since the two part process covers first the mechanical aspects of the piece and second the finish of the piece, a third assembly would not add anything and indeed is likely to introduce issues. Lange famously double assemble all their pieces, this does give a great base level of finish across the range but isn’t quite the same process that Patek follows with it’s double assembled pieces.
As to whether this extra level of finishing is worth it, well that is up to the prospective owner to decide based on their view on the importance of the finish and of course budget.
Of course you’re right. I personally don’t have that level of appreciation for finishing, I’ve been in the high complications room and have seen the work being done. And I’m happy for those that do appreciate it and are willing to pay for it. It’s the same with minute repeaters for me, I know it’s an impressive watchmaking feat but to me a watch that goes ding ding every fifteen minutes or whenever is so pointless and annoying that even if I could get one for the same price as a 5170 I’d probably pass on it. Same with your split second 5370, its a beautiful watch and an impressive watchmaking feat but I can’t figure out how or when or why you would want to time two things simultaneously with a wristwatch.
martinr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 June 2020, 02:54 AM   #35
Russell996
2024 Pledge Member
 
Russell996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 4,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinr View Post
Of course you’re right. I personally don’t have that level of appreciation for finishing, I’ve been in the high complications room and have seen the work being done. And I’m happy for those that do appreciate it and are willing to pay for it. It’s the same with minute repeaters for me, I know it’s an impressive watchmaking feat but to me a watch that goes ding ding every fifteen minutes or whenever is so pointless and annoying that even if I could get one for the same price as a 5170 I’d probably pass on it. Same with your split second 5370, its a beautiful watch and an impressive watchmaking feat but I can’t figure out how or when or why you would want to time two things simultaneously with a wristwatch.
Russell996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 June 2020, 03:24 AM   #36
Bearxj86
"TRF" Member
 
Bearxj86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Los Angeles
Watch: 3970
Posts: 3,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinr View Post
Of course you’re right. I personally don’t have that level of appreciation for finishing, I’ve been in the high complications room and have seen the work being done. And I’m happy for those that do appreciate it and are willing to pay for it. It’s the same with minute repeaters for me, I know it’s an impressive watchmaking feat but to me a watch that goes ding ding every fifteen minutes or whenever is so pointless and annoying that even if I could get one for the same price as a 5170 I’d probably pass on it. Same with your split second 5370, its a beautiful watch and an impressive watchmaking feat but I can’t figure out how or when or why you would want to time two things simultaneously with a wristwatch.
Martin I just love your grouchy language.

Minute repeaters are out of my price point and I personally haven't seen/heard one in the flesh. The closest was the Zeitwerk striking time. I think I am closer to a JLC Memovox rrrrrrrr.iiiiiinnnnnng than a ding ding :)

Double assembly is like another round of finishing - it's like winning the olympics by a split second. You pay a lot for that extra. However once you get to that level maybe there is no turning back.

I'm starting to come round to the 5370P myself except it is a bit large no?
Bearxj86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 June 2020, 05:02 AM   #37
liborguy
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The world
Posts: 82
last week i went through the same decision process as you, among exactly the same three models.... i tried them all on in person here in NYC, and ended up with 3940R, which just arrived a few days ago. i posted some wrist shots in my post above

i'm also in my 30's (at least for a shot time longer!) and work in the fashion / arts world..... patek perpetual calendar holds a special place in the hearts of many vintage / neo-vintage collectors myself included,

i also agree with the other comments above regarding finishing of the 5170 vs 5370..... you can't really compare them but in person 5170 it's not as bad as you imply....... if you do decide to go chrono i would rather have the patek than the lange but it's basically a subjective decision at this level! post a pic when you get it!
liborguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 June 2020, 10:28 AM   #38
aj_tucker
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: New York
Watch: Daytona 116500
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by liborguy View Post
last week i went through the same decision process as you, among exactly the same three models.... i tried them all on in person here in NYC, and ended up with 3940R, which just arrived a few days ago. i posted some wrist shots in my post above

i'm also in my 30's (at least for a shot time longer!) and work in the fashion / arts world..... patek perpetual calendar holds a special place in the hearts of many vintage / neo-vintage collectors myself included,

i also agree with the other comments above regarding finishing of the 5170 vs 5370..... you can't really compare them but in person 5170 it's not as bad as you imply....... if you do decide to go chrono i would rather have the patek than the lange but it's basically a subjective decision at this level! post a pic when you get it!

Great pickup! How did you source it?

After trying them on, care to share your thoughts on the other pieces and why you ultimately went 3940? I know this is your opinion, but it's always helpful to hear the logic of another WIS.
aj_tucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 June 2020, 12:44 PM   #39
liborguy
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The world
Posts: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_tucker View Post
Great pickup! How did you source it?

After trying them on, care to share your thoughts on the other pieces and why you ultimately went 3940? I know this is your opinion, but it's always helpful to hear the logic of another WIS.

all three are excellent watches and ultimately it comes down to your own aesthetics and what is important to you in choosing modern vs vintage.....

as i mentioned i bought the 3940r last week and wen through the same thought process as you. the perpetual calendar is my personal grail and in my mind is the pinnacle of watchmaking, particularly from patek......... regarding the styling of the watch, as a general ethos, i prefer understated elegance because i am 6 feet tall with quite thin wrists and this style what i naturally gravitate towards along with daytonas..... and then there's the patek DNA in the 3940 that makes it so special...... there's a quote from John Reardon, the former International Head of Watches at Christie’s saying "for the price, there is arguably no other watch that encapsulates all that defines Patek Philippe.” for me the 3940 and the perpetual calendar is about romance, history, and DNA. the perpetual calendar itself is a romantic idea if you think about it- they found a way to make it perfect forever.

the history of the 3940 was interesting for me to learn about as well-- how it brought patek out of the quartz crisis in the 1980s and marked the beginning of patek's dominance over its competition through creating ultra luxurious complications and achieving them at the highest level of watchmaking. this history, combined with the pure patek DNA of its styling as a dress watch, combined with the ultimate complication of the perpetual calendar, was what drove me to buy the watch last week...... i went for the rose gold because that color is so mellow / complex / rich when you see it in person, and there are only 1,500 made of the R color (more rare).

the 5205 and 5170 are modern watches and so it is a completely different feeling of excitement one derives from wearing them.

the 5205 is attractive because in my mind it is styled after the 5207G (perpetual calendar/ minute repeater/ tourbillon super super grand complication) which must go for almost 1 million dollars now? when i tried on the 5205 it was beautiful but sits too tall and top heavy on my skinny arms, personally just for me. the watch has an art-deco feel to it but also super modern at the same time. annual calendar in a modern patek case vs perpetual calendar in a neo-vintage case is the decision to be made here of course. 5205 feels very modern to me because of its proportions. its annual calendar movement is an excellent modern movement.

the 5170 i was also interested in buying, but the watch was too large and flat for my wrist given how tall and skinny i am.... the watch is attractive in my mind because it reminds me one of those old school doctors taking your pulse by hand and looking at his chronograph / pulsometer to measure the time. i did not have any qualms regarding the finishing, as you mentioned, but was not looking with a 100x loupe.... again a very modern watch with a nod to some elements of the past..

in my opinion all three are superior watches when i tried them on in person, and you can't go wrong with any of them - the decision to go modern vs vintage is more personal and up to you ! it's like asking what kind of wine do you prefer
liborguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 June 2020, 02:16 AM   #40
raclaims
"TRF" Member
 
raclaims's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,584
Some great info here...I also have the 5370p and the dato lumen like Russell and agree that the Dato is incredible but nothing can touch the 5370p for its elegant perfection
raclaims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 June 2020, 03:01 AM   #41
Russell996
2024 Pledge Member
 
Russell996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 4,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by raclaims View Post
Some great info here...I also have the 5370p and the dato lumen like Russell and agree that the Dato is incredible but nothing can touch the 5370p for its elegant perfection
Russell996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8 October 2020, 01:41 PM   #42
aj_tucker
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: New York
Watch: Daytona 116500
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by liborguy View Post

the 5170 i was also interested in buying, but the watch was too large and flat for my wrist given how tall and skinny i am.... the watch is attractive in my mind because it reminds me one of those old school doctors taking your pulse by hand and looking at his chronograph / pulsometer to measure the time. i did not have any qualms regarding the finishing, as you mentioned, but was not looking with a 100x loupe.... again a very modern watch with a nod to some elements of the past..
I finally tried on a 5170 today...and I agree, that it was not right on my 15cm wrist. Mind you, it wasn't fastened or buckled. However, it felt wobbly. It didn't feel solid on my wrist. I've been eyeing a 5170P (a darling in this forum) but I have concerns about fit...Maybe one day I'll befriend someone who has a 5170P and I can try it out for myself. I tried on the 3970R 2nd Series and the 5970R and they are both perfect (which a preference for the 5970) but they are out of my price range.

The only modern Patek that fit well on me is the 5205 (I love the R) - but truly do not care for the annual calendar complication; it felt flimsy upon actuation.

Then I went over to Lange...and I have to say, people on this forum are clear that Lange's are cold and have poor case design. I couldn't have disagreed more. The Dato - thick, but solid on the wrist. The Data perp in rose gold? Had my heart a flutter. Lange 1 Moonphase was oozing of charm and elegance. The 1815 Chrono was a stunner!

...

I've never owned a Patek. A part of me thinks I would regret not buying a Patek.

But..

I may be more of a Lange guy than a Patek guy

Am I crazy?
aj_tucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8 October 2020, 02:38 PM   #43
Ichiran
2024 Pledge Member
 
Ichiran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Michael
Location: Dotonbori
Watch: Mostly blue dials
Posts: 7,516
Based on my own experience, the 5170 fits better than the 5205 on smaller wrist. My wrist is 6.4" and the 5170 fits perfect, while the 5205 is slightly too big.
Ichiran is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8 October 2020, 11:41 PM   #44
Calatrava r
2024 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: United States
Watch: Rolex and Patek
Posts: 10,518
My view has always been the finish on the movements should be the same on all movements from the company. I believe Lange has this standard as do most new higher end independents.
Calatrava r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 October 2020, 12:40 AM   #45
enjoythemusic
2024 Pledge Member
 
enjoythemusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 19,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calatrava r View Post
My view has always been the finish on the movements should be the same on all movements from the company. I believe Lange has this standard as do most new higher end independents.
In the past Patek seemed to finish all things to top-level standards. Are you saying there are various levels of finish today for cheaper timpeieces versus 'statement pieces'?
__________________
__________________
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'Wow! What a Ride!'” -- Hunter S. Thompson

Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory.
enjoythemusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 October 2020, 01:18 AM   #46
Russell996
2024 Pledge Member
 
Russell996's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 4,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
In the past Patek seemed to finish all things to top-level standards. Are you saying there are various levels of finish today for cheaper timpeieces versus 'statement pieces'?
You're a funny guy.
Russell996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 October 2020, 01:26 AM   #47
Golden Ellipse
2024 Pledge Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Family first
Posts: 652
Quote:
Originally Posted by subtona View Post
would be much happier with the 3940

traded my 5170 (white) for a 5940 (black)

i found the balance of the 5170 dial lacking
(the P version has proper balance imho but i am not into the diamonds)

the 5940 is impeccable from every angle and a heck of bargain (recently saw a white dial for sale at 35k no papers/box), though i concede it is not for everyone... it is one of my favorite daily wears.
I own both the 3940J and the 5940G black. Both are just flat out excellent, quintessential representations of the Patek we thought we knew.
Golden Ellipse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 October 2020, 01:35 AM   #48
enjoythemusic
2024 Pledge Member
 
enjoythemusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Real Name: Steven
Location: Glocal
Posts: 19,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell996 View Post
You're a funny guy.
Thx, you're kinda cute too
__________________
__________________
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'Wow! What a Ride!'” -- Hunter S. Thompson

Sent from my Etch A Sketch using String Theory.
enjoythemusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 October 2020, 10:03 AM   #49
GB-man
2024 Pledge Member
 
GB-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Watch: addiction issues
Posts: 36,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell996 View Post
You're a funny guy.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
GB-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 October 2020, 10:59 AM   #50
liborguy
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The world
Posts: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_tucker View Post
I finally tried on a 5170 today...and I agree, that it was not right on my 15cm wrist. Mind you, it wasn't fastened or buckled. However, it felt wobbly. It didn't feel solid on my wrist. I've been eyeing a 5170P (a darling in this forum) but I have concerns about fit...Maybe one day I'll befriend someone who has a 5170P and I can try it out for myself. I tried on the 3970R 2nd Series and the 5970R and they are both perfect (which a preference for the 5970) but they are out of my price range.

The only modern Patek that fit well on me is the 5205 (I love the R) - but truly do not care for the annual calendar complication; it felt flimsy upon actuation.

Then I went over to Lange...and I have to say, people on this forum are clear that Lange's are cold and have poor case design. I couldn't have disagreed more. The Dato - thick, but solid on the wrist. The Data perp in rose gold? Had my heart a flutter. Lange 1 Moonphase was oozing of charm and elegance. The 1815 Chrono was a stunner!

...

I've never owned a Patek. A part of me thinks I would regret not buying a Patek.

But..

I may be more of a Lange guy than a Patek guy

Am I crazy?
awesome you got to see them in person after all this time !!!
out of all these i will take the 5970 perpetual calendar in platinum please
liborguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 October 2020, 03:38 PM   #51
STLBrax
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: US
Posts: 65
I own the 5170g (black) and am as smitten with it now as when I first bought it. I think the dial is spaced better than the white.
STLBrax is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Takuya Watches

Bobs Watches

My Watch LLC

OCWatches

DavidSW Watches

Coronet


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.