Thoughts on Phillips Geneva Watch Auction X results?

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

I just said this in another thread, but it seems that the term “provenance” is being loosely used these days. Provenance in my book speaks to the history and lineage being traced....an auction house brokering the sale of a watch provides precisely zero provenance.
While it might bring a premium, or make people feel cozy, it isn’t provenance.

How is that then not provenance? :)

It is a traceable point of sale that is interesting in the future of the watch.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

I just said this in another thread, but it seems that the term “provenance” is being loosely used these days. Provenance in my book speaks to the history and lineage being traced....an auction house brokering the sale of a watch provides precisely zero provenance.
While it might bring a premium, or make people feel cozy, it isn’t provenance.

Totally agree. Same in the art world. Provenance is really what takes place before an auction house gets whatever it is they're selling.

The mere fact that Phillips is selling a watch (or painting) technically becomes part of the provenance moving forward, but that in itself isn't what people care about when it comes to knowing the history and background of a watch (or work of art).

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by roh123

How is that then not provenance? :)

It is a traceable point of sale that is interesting in the future of the watch.

True,only from the point that they sold it....not the decades prior (which is inarguably very important). Nothing to speak to authenticity or originality.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by swish77

Totally agree. Same in the art world. Provenance is really what takes place before an auction house gets whatever it is they're selling.

The mere fact that Phillips is selling a watch (or painting) technically becomes part of the provenance moving forward, but that in itself isn't what people care about when it comes to knowing the history and background of a watch (or work of art).

My thoughts precisely.

[locutus49]

I can speak from an art collector standpoint. An auction house is a link in the chain of provenance.

For example, a painting of ours, that we still own, is an old master portrait. We had the auction house markings on the back of the stretcher (the frame, bascially), and the auction house confrmed that the painting was deaccessioned (sold) by a museum, but they could not reveal the name of the museum (condition of anonymity). So the provenance ended with the auction house.

[springer]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Yeah, that 1603 is near perfect and looks 100% complete down to the paper hang tag. Its no different than that guy that just spent 14 grand on here for a claimed NOS 1991 16700.

I just spent more than that for an NOS 16700. You need to get with it and check market prices more often. An NOS 16700 is much rarer than many of the watches from this auction.

[Richard Carver]

I would need to see some actual provenance on the Steel Day Date. A 1556 test watch in 1975? That movement had been out for years, marked 1555? Stick an older plate on a 1556? It is very common to alter a steel 16XX case to fit a 15XX Day Date movement. These frankens have been known to exist for years. I bought a 1556 movement years ago to make my own SSDD, just haven't put it together yet. :)

When guns have the numbers ground off they can sometimes be uncovered using xrays, for 100k I would be xraying the hell out of that "no number" case.

For 100k there will be a lot more SSDD discovered soon. :)

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

I would need to see some actual provenance on the Steel Day Date. A 1556 test watch in 1975? That movement had been out for years, marked 1555? Stick an older plate on a 1556? It is very common to alter a steel 16XX case to fit a 15XX Day Date movement. These frankens have been known to exist for years. I bought a 1556 movement years ago to make my own SSDD, just haven't put it together yet. :)

When guns have the numbers ground off they can sometimes be uncovered using xrays, for 100k I would be xraying the hell out of that "no number" case.

For 100k there will be a lot more SSDD discovered soon. :)

I would not be surprised if Phillips could help prospective buyers with additional provenance on request. Often there’s much more to know to lots than what they show in the catalogue and condition report. Not saying they had more but I don’t see it as impossible. My experience is that you can get way more information by asking the right persons. Something I would recommend doing if considering these kind of pieces.

[dhknola]

Roh continues to make excellent points...These auction houses tend to know their customers and most likely are more apt to aid their 'regular customers' than catering to online tire-kickers.
I truly agree that part of the provenance of buying from one of the top tier brick and mortars is that they strive to reject watches that are not exceptional. Sure they get duped here and there or have to take a sub par lot as a group deal to get an above average lot, but overall they have a reputation of excellence they want to continue manifested with the lots they present.