Why the AD hate?

[Moggo]

My only problem with it is the lies, tell the truth be transparent and have some balls!

‘Yes Sir we only sell those to the high rollers’, at least we all know where we stand then.


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[teck21]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Well, first of all, ADs are not allowed (by their contract with Rolex) to sell to resellers.

So, those who break that contract by selling to greys are unfailry competing with those honest ADs that play by the rules.

Additionally by drying out the market for ‚normal‘ buyers, they fuel the hype and exaggerations in the grey market and that means they contribute to the insane prices which many pay on that market.

They are fuelling the market in that sense. I do not disagree with that.

I’m merely disagreeing with people who think AD’s ‘disingenuous’ practices are the single largest reason why most ‘honest’ collectors cannot obtain what they want from ADs form the Rolex.com website.

Again I concede these people may be in the minority, but they constitute a disproportionately large presence.

And this may never be proven, and it probably is impossible to prove:

A large number of what you call ‘normal buyers’ are anything but. This is simply dictated by the fact that ADs cannot charge above MSRP while ‘normal’ buyers can sell them at prices well above MSRP.







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[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by teck21

They are fuelling the market in that sense. I do not disagree with that.

I’m merely disagreeing with people who think AD’s ‘disingenuous’ practices are the single largest reason why most ‘honest’ collectors cannot obtain what they want from ADs form the Rolex.com website.

Again I concede these people may be in the minority, but they constitute a disproportionately large presence.

And this may never be proven, and it probably is impossible to prove:

A large number of what you call ‘normal buyers’ are anything but. This is simply dictated by the fact that ADs cannot charge above MSRP while ‘normal’ buyers can sell them at prices well above MSRP.







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You say that in spite of a known fact they are the ones providing the watches to greys, bypassing the AD/consumer route?

[teck21]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

You say that in spite of a known fact they are the ones providing the watches to greys, bypassing the AD/consumer route?

Yes, thar is actually exactly what I am saying. And I suspect, based on y own experience is that an AD would not want to profit through greys if they could make the same money selling to ‘genuine’ customers.

They don’t decide decide how many sports models they get, and how much they can sell them for.

Why should you expect them to sell for less than what they think they could achieve, bearing in mind their own economic objectives, long run and short.

Sure they could be more transparent about it, but as Jack Nicholson said:

‘You can’t handle the truth’!




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[stockae92]

Because AD is the obstacle between me and a new Daytona ceramic .. LOL

[123Blueface]

Originally Posted by teck21

Yes, thar is actually exactly what I am saying. And I suspect, based on y own experience is that an AD would not want to profit through greys if they could make the same money selling to ‘genuine’ customers.

They don’t decide decide how many sports models they get, and how much they can sell them for.

Why should you expect them to sell for less than what they think they could achieve, bearing in mind their own economic objectives, long run and short.

Sure they could be more transparent about it, but as Jack Nicholson said:

‘You can’t handle the truth’!




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Are you an AD or an attorney for an AD?
Wow, your defense of practicing a business outside the accord they have entered into legally and contractually with the company supplying them the product, to further profit (not lose money as you wish to describe, instead, just generate more profit through greed) is befuddling.
Further befuddling that you find no fault in that very same AD being responsible for the current state of affairs as result of supplying greys, for greed, who in turn further escalate the cost and greed, eventually passed to the consumer.
Your ethics or lack thereof that you exhibit through your comments in this post are even yet more befuddling.
Carry on in your world.

[RobearH]

OP are you practicing up for a debate team...and it’s not a requirement to respond to every post. JAT

[Moggo]

I try to be fair, I hate the greys as well!

This topic will always have people on both sides of the debate, to say that they are giving money to people by selling at MSRP is a bit of a strange view though.

If you are a big spender and in favour with an AD then you will see it one way, if not you will likely see it another way.

Obviously some of the most vociferous supporters of the current AD practice are affiliated with them, they must be to see bundling etc as acceptable.


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[imperio]

Seems to be an issue very close to the OP's heart

Have a good weekend everyone. Try not to get angry at ADs

[NavalFlight]

The answer seems simple, either let ADs sell at market price or increase volume to ADs.

Either option would kill off the grey market for new watches.

[Gravity]

Originally Posted by squatchy

Gravity, did you get the RO directly from dealer? If so, what other watches did you have to buy to get it?

Since my first Rolex in the 90s to present, I have yet to buy from an AD. Have posted extensively on this but simply, I have always found it inefficient and not beneficial to stick with a single AD and be hostage to their inventory and “rules”, not to mention the waiting. To me time is the most valuable asset and I can’t imagine waiting years for a watch I want now. All said, even with the premiums I have paid on some models, I am net positive exponentially more in the discounts and tax savings on everything else. A no brainer for me, but to each their own.

Originally Posted by teck21

The thread title was not click bait in any way, you could simply have chosen to not click on it rather than try to act clever with the meme.


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Awww come on, a good meme now and again is great to beak up subjects that have been beaten to death. :)

[Luke@TRF]

don't exactly hate the ADs but they can order stock from Rolex, not just receive what they get. perhaps only the SS models are per allocation basis.

[Colin G]

When your girlfriend starts "maximizing profit" from another guy while still with you, I bet you'd be whistling a different tune.

[Tha Baron]

Why are we still talking about this nonsense? Like a bunch of little school girls and boys...

[Vanmarsenille]

People know that ADs are selling watches to grey dealers. It is simply not believable that the plentiful supply of SS models available from grey dealers are all coming from "flippers"; many are coming straight from ADs themselves. In addition, there are plenty of examples on these boards of ADs trying to bundle, so spend $35k on a Day Date and then they'll "see what they can do for you" for that SS GMT or Sub you're after. The system is broken. Imagine you wanted to buy a new BMW M3, and you go to the dealership and they've got nothing, but José's Autos across the street has 6 of them sitting in a row, all for 30% above MSRP; the dealership had just told you if you buy a 7 series then they'll see what they can do about getting you an M3.....wouldn't you be pissed off?

[Vvvlllooo]

Originally Posted by Colin G

When your girlfriend starts "maximizing profit" from another guy while still with you, I bet you'd be whistling a different tune.

That’s unnecessary and doesn’t even make sense

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by PossumDixon

Let's not BS here, the AD's feed the grey market. So, to say they are there to save us from the grey market is insane. Every grey dealer I have spoken to gets their watches from AD's.

Call me crazy, but a dealer's job is to buy inventory at cost plus from the manufacturer and sell it with a markup that is agreed upon by the manufacturer and his dealer. That's the gig. It's not to then buy said items, and then manipulate the market to make more from the sale. If greys want to come in and buy all the inventory, so be it. Let them. It's really not the AD's concern. They aren't the moral police. They are a seller of Rolex watches. They get their markup, and they sell the watches. They shouldn't care one bit who buys them.

They aren't holding them back from the grey market, they are holding legitimate customers hostage, to pay way more in a backwards way. Rolex won't let you charge over MSRP, so you get way more by using these deceptive practices.

As a customer for a Rolex watch, if I walk in and there are no watches, I'm out of luck. I can live with that. If a grey dealer bought them all, oh well, he beat me to it. I will try again later, if it is that important to me. If I want to buy from a grey, I can but I don't have to. But, don't give me the nonsense that I can't buy a watch that is in inventory because:

1) I won't bundle it with a piece of jewelry, I don't want
2) I won't bundle it with other watches, I don't want
3) I won't buy a PM watch, I don't want

To do that stuff, is manipulating the gain, you have already agreed to make with the manufacturer. If you don't like the Rolex margins, sell another brand. Quite frankly, I can't believe Rolex let's AD's pull this nonsense. It is bad for Rolex's business in my opinion.

I don't believe Rolex is aware of half of the BS these AD's are pulling. But in the same respect AD's are independently owned businesses that have the upper hand now in this sellers market. They have taken the proverbial ball and are running with it. Until this watch "bubble" bursts and demand wanes, these shenanigans will continue without consequence. It is what it is.

[rlx123]

Originally Posted by RobearH

This fits.

Is there a game if there is no willing participant?

[watchmaker]

My two cents would be people need to stop extrapolating the minority of ADs that supply resellers or provide sub par service to mean that is what all ADs do.

Beyond that statement the ADs that genuinely and provably are engaging in unethical practices deserve all the criticism they have coming their way.

[Harry-57]

I like my AD just fine. Sometimes I even buy a watch from them. Sometimes they even manage to sell me a watch. Quite an achievement nowadays. They are a business. How they run their business is none of my business. Unless they defraud people, in which case they won't be a business any more.

Here's my problem with this thread and threads like it. Even if I didn't particularly like my AD, I would not hate them. Hate is an ugly, intense and toxic emotion. Do people really hate other people for such superficial reasons? This is not good. It's a revolting way to live a life. By the same token, as a general observation, it's a revolting thing to accuse else someone of.

Why is all the fun leaving so quickly? Where is all this hate coming from? This isn't about watches or anything to do with them. It can't be.

[phow]

Originally Posted by RHIII

Also - what is your representative sample of ADs - in terms of business models? What I’m asking here is bundling requirements, blind ordering, the ‘lists’. Not all ADs are created equal for sure. We can all blame social media, the Internet forums etc for all the hype for certain models. To me alternative ‘practices’ at retail establishments simply turn them more into grey market dealers. If I walk into a BMW dealership and want to buy a 5 series - I don’t get told - well- we’ll sell you a 5 series but you have to buy an I8 first....same principle. This doesn’t mean the AD (or dealership) is losing $$ at all. Secondary market prices do not have any real pedigree - and MSRP is established for a reason. With ordering watches just don’t ‘show up’ at ADs. Watches are ORDERED, and by the way - if there’s already one in stock, on the books - the probability of an AD getting a second right now is VERY LOW, if at all - and furthermore when watches are ordered - there is an expected wait time. Every watch I’ve ordered from one of the three ADs I deal with (and know the owners) has come in at or before what they initially quoted. My AD would love to sell everyone who comes in and asks for a Daytona one, or a 5167, or 5711 - but until previous orders are filled - no sense in taking a deposit or quoting someone a 3-5 year wait time.

At the end of the day - ADs are retail establishments, that are (yes) in business to make money - however they should all treat customers with respect regardless of ANYTHING. And we all know how that goes....

I find the BMW analogy interesting because while this may not apply to BMW, it does apply to Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari and many others.

I'm a 911 guy myself and had to build a relationship with my local Porsche dealer in order to get an allocation spot for a GT3 or GT3 RS. This required multiple other purchases in order to be considered for this particular model.

Could I purchase a GT3 on the used market? Sure and I have done so before. But if I want to be the one to spec the car and pull the plastic off, you have to be on "the list".

The same applies to other exclusive vehicle models from brands like Lambo, Ferrari, and McLaren. You can't just walk into Ferrari and order a 488 Pista...

I view the AD/Rolex situation as being very similar so it didn't rub me the wrong way when I had to build a relationship with my AD in order to be able to quickly receive the particular watch I wanted, when I wanted it. You have to remember pretty much every AD has models you can walk in and buy. The only trouble is with models that have limited availability.

However, where I think things go completely wrong is when you have an dealer engaging in questionable business practices. Requiring large deposits is one of the big ones that immediately comes to mind.

In the car world, a deposit is only appropriate if you are guaranteed an allocation. It is never required to simply be put on the list in hopes of an allocation spot becoming available... Being on the list should cost you nothing more than the time it takes you to provide the SA with your name.

My AD has never requested a deposit. They put me on the list and when my name comes up and the watch is in, they ask if I'm still interested and we go from there.

The whole "AD hate" thing is avoidable if you just don't allow your emotions to get the best of you and give in to a shady dealer who is asking you for a deposit or to buy 3 watches you don't want. Any AD that tries to get you to buy something that they know you won't be happy with is a terrible AD and not worth your time. The best dealers are the ones that will point you away from something they know you won't be happy with because they don't just care about the sale today but the next sale in a few months or next year.

Like anything in life, if you spend the time to build the relationship slowly over months/years, you will likely have a good experience and not be victim of a bad AD that happened to be there to cash in on your need to have something right now.

I guarantee there isn't a single Rolex owner that gets upset when they go to sell their SS model down the road and either, lose very little, break even or in some cases, even make a profit... While the system is frustrating for newcomers, it really does reward those that have put in the time and paid their dues.

[NavalFlight]

Originally Posted by Vanmarsenille

People know that ADs are selling watches to grey dealers. It is simply not believable that the plentiful supply of SS models available from grey dealers are all coming from "flippers"; many are coming straight from ADs themselves. In addition, there are plenty of examples on these boards of ADs trying to bundle, so spend $35k on a Day Date and then they'll "see what they can do for you" for that SS GMT or Sub you're after. The system is broken. Imagine you wanted to buy a new BMW M3, and you go to the dealership and they've got nothing, but José's Autos across the street has 6 of them sitting in a row, all for 30% above MSRP; the dealership had just told you if you buy a 7 series then they'll see what they can do about getting you an M3.....wouldn't you be pissed off?

This wouldn’t happen because the car dealer can sell the car at market prices. When the Prius first came out, there were 6 month waiting lists and the car sold for thousands over MSRP.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by EddyG

Because of 'the list'

List.... ????

Bwaaaaaaaaaaa-hahahahahahah.

PS: 100% agree with you.

Joking aside, heard a guy sent his wife to get watch.... not sure what she did with manager but she did leave with the watch.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by teck21

There appears plenty of dissatisfaction towards ADs for their ‘shenanigans’, and to be honest I don’t understand why they should be blamed for woes not of their doing.

For one thing, they are profit maximising entities. They aim to make as much money as they can, no different from any other business at all. Yet they seem hated in a way other businesses are not, and I find that incredibly unfair to them.

Firstly, they are unable to determine what they receive from Rolex in every shipment. They receive what they receive, and do what they can with it. All of them wished they could satisfy the demands of every customer that walked in, but the scarcity of supply simply means they cannot.

They are also not allowed to sell above MSRP, and every idiot knows that the popular pieces can currently command prices well beyond MSRP.

I therefore put it to you AD haters, why should they sacrifice their own profit (by way of bundling or relationship building) in order for you to enjoy a watch from which they all know they will be ‘losing’ money from by selling it to you purely at MSRP?


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+ 1 We need more people like you in this world! I want some more sport watch but I don’t blame AD for the scarcity, just stupid to blame them.

These people should buy an Omega.

[Vanmarsenille]

What's the point of having Authorized Dealers who have nothing to sell you, while Unauthorized Dealers have all the stock?

[Moggo]

I agree hate is a bit strong, my emotions don’t run that high for something that is inconsequential.

I dislike the ethics the same as I do with Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc

Building ‘relationships’ with shops for inanimate objects is pretty futile, I save my relationship building for people I care about.

The worm will eventually turn and those that have played their customers will have regrets I am sure.

I was told the Daytona was never meant as a general sale watch, it is a special ‘piece’ to showcase what they can do! Nearly spat my coffee over the AD with laughter, don’t see that mentioned on the Rolex website




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[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by phow

I find the BMW analogy interesting because while this may not apply to BMW, it does apply to Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari and many others.

I'm a 911 guy myself and had to build a relationship with my local Porsche dealer in order to get an allocation spot for a GT3 or GT3 RS. This required multiple other purchases in order to be considered for this particular model.

Could I purchase a GT3 on the used market? Sure and I have done so before. But if I want to be the one to spec the car and pull the plastic off, you have to be on "the list".

The same applies to other exclusive vehicle models from brands like Lambo, Ferrari, and McLaren. You can't just walk into Ferrari and order a 488 Pista...

I view the AD/Rolex situation as being very similar so it didn't rub me the wrong way when I had to build a relationship with my AD in order to be able to quickly receive the particular watch I wanted, when I wanted it. You have to remember pretty much every AD has models you can walk in and buy. The only trouble is with models that have limited availability.

However, where I think things go completely wrong is when you have an dealer engaging in questionable business practices. Requiring large deposits is one of the big ones that immediately comes to mind.

In the car world, a deposit is only appropriate if you are guaranteed an allocation. It is never required to simply be put on the list in hopes of an allocation spot becoming available... Being on the list should cost you nothing more than the time it takes you to provide the SA with your name.

My AD has never requested a deposit. They put me on the list and when my name comes up and the watch is in, they ask if I'm still interested and we go from there.

The whole "AD hate" thing is avoidable if you just don't allow your emotions to get the best of you and give in to a shady dealer who is asking you for a deposit or to buy 3 watches you don't want. Any AD that tries to get you to buy something that they know you won't be happy with is a terrible AD and not worth your time. The best dealers are the ones that will point you away from something they know you won't be happy with because they don't just care about the sale today but the next sale in a few months or next year.

Like anything in life, if you spend the time to build the relationship slowly over months/years, you will likely have a good experience and not be victim of a bad AD that happened to be there to cash in on your need to have something right now.

I guarantee there isn't a single Rolex owner that gets upset when they go to sell their SS model down the road and either, lose very little, break even or in some cases, even make a profit... While the system is frustrating for newcomers, it really does reward those that have put in the time and paid their dues.

I think this is very well put

[Marcjvr]

Originally Posted by squatchy

the reality is that we have business relationships that are far too valuable for any joe-schmo to come in .

That’s why I strongly dislike some ADs. They view their valued customers as “joe-schmo”

[ferrissteve11]

I'm sorry to the OP if you fail to see the overall reasoning why many have a distasteful attitude toward AD's. I understand maximizing profit as a business, but essentially 'screwing over' the WIS or casual buyer and forcing bundled sales or only selling to Greys has turned a number of people off the brand or the traditional AD buying route.
But it is what it is...

[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by ferrissteve11

I'm sorry to the OP if you fail to see the overall reasoning why many have a distasteful attitude toward AD's. I understand maximizing profit as a business, but essentially 'screwing over' the WIS or casual buyer and forcing bundled sales or only selling to Greys has turned a number of people off the brand or the traditional AD buying route.
But it is what it is...

It has to be said that negative stories are far more likely to be posted than positive ones. We are not hearing about of from the hundreds of thousands of satisfied AD customers every year.

We cannot let the minority affect our view of the majority.