First vintage sub 5513 or 1680?

[Alasdair]

Hi All, I have a couple of newer rolexes (GMT IIc and Submariner ceramic) and a couple of modern rolexes - 2003 GMT II and 2002 Date. I have always bought with full box and papers so far, but am starting to look at vintage models.

What is your advice on vintage models? The prices have gone mad lately and I think the £20k that a 1680 with box and papers commands seems too steep! £14k will get me something from the 70s in good condition with original dial (albeit service date wheel) with an original short guarantee (not certificate).

I could get a service dialled 1680 with no paperwork for £7-8k but even then that seem steep, or a later 5513 for about the same money.

Not so long back both models could be got with box and papers for new submariner money or less!

So...

What would your advice be on which model, and how much do I realistically need to spend to get a tidy model?

Any good resources for learning about vintage Rolex models and how to authenticate (I know about the serial numbers, date wheels, bracelet clasp on originals and tiny bit about dials). I don't know much about case shape, case back markings or general pitfalls of vintage Rolex ownership, or anything else you guys know that I don't!

Any advice or comments would be great.

[roh123]

Spend 12-15k gbp and buy an early or mid 70’s 5513 in great condition. Do not look for papers and accessories. Look for a perfect watch. Focus on dial/hand condition and case. Bracelet, insert etc could always be changed if you don’t like what’s on today. For a matte sub it is not really much more difficult than this.

Dial: no damage such as scratches, edge being chipped etc. Lume should be intact and look attractive and depending on age react accordingly under UV. Hands should match the dial and should also react similarly as the dial.

Case: Without bitching about unpolished or not it is important that the form of the case is as it should be. Bevels should still be viisble and edges should remain sharp. Lug size will differ as they were hand polished fron the factory. Some lugs will be thicker than others.

Make sure to read up on the model you want. Most important after what I wrote above is making sure the dial match the serial and caseback. Once you have checked this it is only a bonus if it has the right insert and bracelet. If not, source those parts. Papers and accessories are nice (as long as the watch is great) but will command a premium. Never focus on that as long as you can’t recognize a great example. Watches are meant to be worn and a great watch is way more fun on the wrist than an average one with box and papers.

Best of luck!

Here’s a great resource written by the highly knowledged Beaumont Miller II:

http://www.5513mattedial.com/

[lhanddds]

Originally Posted by roh123

Spend 12-15k gbp and buy an early or mid 70’s 5513 in great condition. Do not look for papers and accessories. Look for a perfect watch. Focus on dial/hand condition and case. Bracelet, insert etc could always be changed if you don’t like what’s on today. For a matte sub it is not really much more difficult than this.

Dial: no damage such as scratches, edge being chipped etc. Lume should be intact and look attractive and depending on age react accordingly under UV. Hands should match the dial and should also react similarly as the dial.

Case: Without bitching about unpolished or not it is important that the form of the case is as it should be. Bevels should still be viisble and edges should remain sharp. Lug size will differ as they were hand polished fron the factory. Some lugs will be thicker than others.

Make sure to read up on the model you want. Most important after what I wrote above is making sure the dial match the serial and caseback. Once you have checked this it is only a bonus if it has the right insert and bracelet. If not, source those parts. Papers and accessories are nice (as long as the watch is great) but will command a premium. Never focus on that as long as you can’t recognize a great example. Watches are meant to be worn and a great watch is way more fun on the wrist than an average one with box and papers.

Best of luck!

Here’s a great resource written by the highly knowledged Beaumont Miller II:

http://www.5513mattedial.com/

Great advice here

[Dan S]

I don't think we can tell you whether you prefer a 1680 or a 5513, the date vs. no-date preference is very personal. Beyond that, I personally think you got great advice above, to focus on originality and condition.

The amount you spend will depend on how and where you buy. If you're willing to put in the significant time and energy to educate yourself, you will have the confidence to buy one from a private seller, on eBay, or an auction site, and you will pay less. If you don't have the knowledge, you will need to pay a premium to buy from a dealer. Even there you should be careful to do some due diligence, however.

Bargain-hunting without deep knowledge will likely get you into trouble, just stick around this forum for a few weeks and you'll see plenty of examples.

[Alasdair]

Originally Posted by roh123

Spend 12-15k gbp and buy an early or mid 70’s 5513 in great condition. Do not look for papers and accessories. Look for a perfect watch. Focus on dial/hand condition and case. Bracelet, insert etc could always be changed if you don’t like what’s on today. For a matte sub it is not really much more difficult than this.

Dial: no damage such as scratches, edge being chipped etc. Lume should be intact and look attractive and depending on age react accordingly under UV. Hands should match the dial and should also react similarly as the dial.

Case: Without bitching about unpolished or not it is important that the form of the case is as it should be. Bevels should still be viisble and edges should remain sharp. Lug size will differ as they were hand polished fron the factory. Some lugs will be thicker than others.

Make sure to read up on the model you want. Most important after what I wrote above is making sure the dial match the serial and caseback. Once you have checked this it is only a bonus if it has the right insert and bracelet. If not, source those parts. Papers and accessories are nice (as long as the watch is great) but will command a premium. Never focus on that as long as you can’t recognize a great example. Watches are meant to be worn and a great watch is way more fun on the wrist than an average one with box and papers.

Best of luck!

Here’s a great resource written by the highly knowledged Beaumont Miller II:

http://www.5513mattedial.com/

Thanks so much for your advice so far! Watches like this attached image are tempting because they are at the lower end price wise but I’m guessing they hold a lot less appeal for collectors and less long term interest in terms of originality and investment. In terms of 1680 vs 5513 I need to get hands on more with both to decide, great advice all round.

[Alasdair]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I don't think we can tell you whether you prefer a 1680 or a 5513, the date vs. no-date preference is very personal. Beyond that, I personally think you got great advice above, to focus on originality and condition.

The amount you spend will depend on how and where you buy. If you're willing to put in the significant time and energy to educate yourself, you will have the confidence to buy one from a private seller, on eBay, or an auction site, and you will pay less. If you don't have the knowledge, you will need to pay a premium to buy from a dealer. Even there you should be careful to do some due diligence, however.

Bargain-hunting without deep knowledge will likely get you into trouble, just stick around this forum for a few weeks and you'll see plenty of examples.

Good advice, thanks. I’m spending some time here to find out more about the vintage models - trickier to learn about and more pitfalls than modern but so much more character!

[sishac]

Buy what you love...don’t focus on the investment part and it you are going to wear it realize that scratches happen...these watches are tougher than you think!!

I happen to love a matte service dial that glows brightly in the dark, so I have both a 1680 that is beautiful but it wears a service dial...I also have the original dial as well, but as I wear the watch, I like the usability of a service dial. I also have a 5512 that is worn and I believe an original gilt dial from 1965. It has really been polished in the past and the lungs are thin, but I got it for a very fair price based on its condition..it has a service dial and it is a 5512.....so I love it and wear it in rotation with all of my other watches.


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[Subspecies]

5513 and 1680 are two very different watches, both are excellent though and probably the best way into vintage imo. Buy the best you can and stretch your budget as you will live with the watch for hopefully eons and any extra spent will soon be forgotten.
Personally I'm biased as I own one but for me the 5513 is preferable for its style and uncluttered simplicity, added bonus is a meters first or maxi dial.

Just to whet your appetite.


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[Xantiagib]

If its any consolation I had a meters frist 5513 which I swapped for a 1680 Red sub and now I would be happy to swap back - so the answer is you need one of each!

[ADINVA]

As someone who does not know anything about vintage, who is literally a complete amateur, I would use that amount of money and buy a 1675 from none other than springer. You do not have to deal with whether the watch is a frankenwatch or a fake piece.

A good 1675 is a great piece to own. This is what I would do.

[Laserflorida]

I’ll second the springer recommendation. Although I have purchased only GMT’s from him, he has and gets subs as well to sell. In fact we were discussing 5513’s today.