Thoughts on watch dealers selling (vintage) watches with laser welded cases?

[Kliminator]

Quick question for the community here. I’ve been seeing more and more watches being sold by various vintage watch dealers with incredibly sharp cases which I believe have been laser welded. Keep in mind that the description for these watches state that the watch has been ‘previously polished’ so they aren’t being represented as ‘unpolished’.

However, curious if folks think that there needs to be a distinction or transparency of sellers between the following:

1. A watch that has been laser welded. IE. Material has been added back to the case, and then polished to return original chamfers / bevels

2. A watch that has been worn down from it’s factory finishing / bevels / chamfers down, and then polished. Meaning no additional material has been added to the watch

3. It’s all the same, who cares as long as it is not being presented as ‘unpolished’

Where do you guys stand? In general, this may not seem like a huge deal but the world of vintage is also incredibly nuanced so in a way I feel like calling a watch ‘polished’ (scenario 2 - factory finish worn down and then polished with no additional material added) is slightly different than laser welded (scenario 1 - material added, then polished / finished back to achieve factory bevels / chamfers).

Note: I have previously reached out directly to one dealer to ask if one of the watches in inventory was laser welded and while they didn’t directly say yes, they basically implied it by saying it had been ‘touched up’ in response to that question.

[2loaded]

Much like vintage cars, if restored, it should be documented.

[eddiemonster]

I'm inclined to go with #3 b/c:

1. Life's too short!

2. Previously polished vs. laser welded & polished; it's just semantics... Of course these details could, prolly would make a difference with watches of great provenance like Newman's Daytona, but we're talking a $17.8 million watch! For most that trade on Earth in the secondary market prolly a not a deal breaker, mind you many of these watches are already missing box & papers, etc ...

Slightly digressing, I honestly don't understand why collectors covet original condition above all else, IF that original condition equates to shitty condition (to the extent that it would need/benefit from laser welding).

If I'm going to spend collector caliber money on a timepiece, my first choice would be to find a safe queen or in the best original condition possible (I would be content with an acceptable amount vintage patina). If that's not possible, then hell yeah I'd rather have a laser welded case with perfect chamfers over one that needs it, but is left in crappy, original as-is condition. After all, having blemishes in a watch doesn't inherently add to it's value, so why retain those blemishes?

One of my peeves is when people/ sellers say, it's in great condition for a XX year-old watch, car, etc. Age doesn't have to correlate to physical condition as there are many old objects that look pristine b/c their custodians have handled them with love, care and caution. That being said, if the semantics alone are enough to make you think, then you need to hold out for a vintage piece that is in ORIGINAL minty condition- they're certainly out there if you're patient ...

Back to the gist of your question, I always believe in full disclosure. I always shop the seller, and that seller needs to be transparent and accountable. As a buyer who shops the seller, it would be my due diligence to actively ask if "previously polished" also means that the watch has been laser welded- if that sort of thing bothers you. If it does bother you and you didn't specifically ask, then it's equally on you.

[Nauti]

Understand where you are coming from…

I think laser welding and refinishing is becoming more acceptable as time moves on terms such as polished or un-polished are or should be taken with a pinch of salt, as vendors claims are just guess work unless they have had the watch from new, most all have had some form / degree of polish..

When you look at some 1680, 1665, 1675 and many of their newer their kin with pins sticking out because lugs have been worn down by 30 or 40 years of wear or the abrasive polishing wheel some can be a sorry sight and others have taken huge dinks to case sides or lugs from being used as ‘tool watches’…many are dismissed for this reason or even recommended new ‘mid case’….which imho is a worse fate than laser welding…discuss ….

If they can be sympathetically brought back to former glory is that not a good thing ?…

Would you buy a rusty E-Type or a 308 GTB full of dents and scrapes then keep it that way or would you restore it ‘sympathetically’ by getting rid of the rotten metal and replacing with new areas and fresh paint to make it look its best ?…

Likewise if i whacked my 16750 on a granite top putting a dink in an otherwise pefect watch would i seek to get it repaired (laser welded) or just leave it ?…I would repair it just as i would a 80’s 911..

In respect of declaration of level of restoration I think vendors should be completely transparent and potential buyers decide whether its for them or for the next enquirer who may be more accepting….

[watchmavan]

I'd much rather a watch that had been Lazer welded well enough that you can't tell than a very lightly polished watch.


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[NickD1975]

Originally Posted by Nauti

Understand where you are coming from…

I think laser welding and refinishing is becoming more acceptable as time moves on terms such as polished or un-polished are or should be taken with a pinch of salt, as vendors claims are just guess work unless they have had the watch from new, most all have had some form / degree of polish..

When you look at some 1680, 1665, 1675 and many of their newer their kin with pins sticking out because lugs have been worn down by 30 or 40 years of wear or the abrasive polishing wheel some can be a sorry sight and others have taken huge dinks to case sides or lugs from being used as ‘tool watches’…many are dismissed for this reason or even recommended new ‘mid case’….which imho is a worse fate than laser welding…discuss ….

If they can be sympathetically brought back to former glory is that not a good thing ?…

Would you buy a rusty E-Type or a 308 GTB full of dents and scrapes then keep it that way or would you restore it ‘sympathetically’ by getting rid of the rotten metal and replacing with new areas and fresh paint to make it look its best ?…

Likewise if i whacked my 16750 on a granite top putting a dink in an otherwise pefect watch would i seek to get it repaired (laser welded) or just leave it ?…I would repair it just as i would a 80’s 911..

In respect of declaration of level of restoration I think vendors should be completely transparent and potential buyers decide whether its for them or for the next enquirer who may be more accepting….

The car comparison is a good one. An original car is often worth more than a restored one because it's been look after enough over X number of years such that it doesn't need restoration.

The same is true of a watch that has been damaged and then repaired. It would be worth less damaged than fixed, but if it had never had the damage it would be worth more, because it would have been looked after better.

Its the same with antiques and a whole bunch of other markets. Originality is always preferred. It's only original once.

It wouldn't bother me particularly, but I consider myself as someone who likes to wear nice watches rather than a collector. If I didn't wear a watch I wouldn't keep it, so they are going to get their share of marks and bangs.

[Nauti]

Originally Posted by NickD1975

The car comparison is a good one. An original car is often worth more than a restored one because it's been look after enough over X number of years such that it doesn't need restoration.

The same is true of a watch that has been damaged and then repaired. It would be worth less damaged than fixed, but if it had never had the damage it would be worth more, because it would have been looked after better.

Its the same with antiques and a whole bunch of other markets. Originality is always preferred. It's only original once.

It wouldn't bother me particularly, but I consider myself as someone who likes to wear nice watches rather than a collector. If I didn't wear a watch I wouldn't keep it, so they are going to get their share of marks and bangs.

Coming from a classic car background i agree with your sentiments on originality however its rare you would down value an 80’s Aston for having new sills or an R107 for having a new bulkhead or a Pagoda for having had its boot floor or footwells replaced….

What i am seeing in both cars and watches is a greater degree of acceptability would i have Pagoda or DB5 chrome bumpers re-chromed or leave them looking tired and worn out to maintain ‘originality’….nope i would have them done likewise walnut door caps or dash on a Bentley….

Big unsightly dink in a 1665 DRSD case …lazer weld or leave or replace case for a new 4.4xxxxx case ?

[zapokee]

Given an A/B choice, I'd rather have a nice prisine laser-welded example than one whose case is toast.

I agree that dealers should disclose. But laser welding these days is so good that they might not even know, unless they've had it done themselves.

[1665fan]

Eventually they will all be redone and re cut…..sign of the times…..

[Jmbarrack]

So this is an interesting topic with it comes not just to vintage 4 digit watches but even now with neo-vintage 5 digits as I think a lot of dealers have these pieces “touched up”.

I’m on the side of there is nothing wrong with it as long as it’s disclosed in the watch listing. However, I think a lot of dealers do have the prices touched up, but just don’t mention it. They post the listing and don’t say it’s been polished but also don’t list it as unpolished. They just don’t mention anything on the condition. I think a lot of this is up to us as buyers to decipher. My theory is if a 20 year old 5 digit watch looks THAT good, it’s been recut, touched up, whatever. No way anything survives 20-50 years on a wrist with perfect chamfers.

That said, I personally like watches that have been restored. I purchased my 16710 specifically because it had been restored by Rolliworks and the seller disclosed that information and sold it as such. I cannot go to an AD and buy a 16710 new, so the closest I’m going to ever get to a new one is this route.

My 1675 had been restored by Rolex. They didn’t do any laser welding, but did polish close to original. That said, you can start to see the spring bars at certain angles. So they shaved rather than added and recut. Again as people mentioned, it’s a 50 year old watch. Some of this is expected.

So which one is better? It’s hard to say. I appreciate the fact that the 1675 has only ever been touched by Rolex themselves even though it’s not truly factory original lugs. But I also love the 16710 when I look down and it really looks factory new.

But isn’t this the fun of collecting?


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[1665fan]

It’s hurting the value of the real unpolished original examples…. Once a watch is recut then beat up it will look identical to the real unpolished originals….

[Dan S]

Personally, I will say if I have had a case refinished and I know from experience that there are many buyers who don't care, they are happy to buy a watch that looks good. The opinions expressed about originality on most watch forums are not necessarily representative of many (most?) vintage watch buyers.

But I certainly wouldn't count on every seller being honest about it, especially dealers, who are notorious about playing fast and loose with their claims. As time goes by, these watches will pass through multiple hands, and the owner won't even know. So while this can be interesting to discuss, it's largely a hypothetical question. I think you ultimately need to use your own judgement about what you buy.

[77T]

If a vintage watch case is compared to a vintage car frame then some welding to correct a fault is not such a big deal.

If the dealer had the work done then I believe it should be disclosed.

But if the laser welding was done by a previous owner (and unknown to the dealer) then describing it as previously polished is fair because that is the only visible evidence of prior work.

IMHO, this laser work doesn’t devalue the market for all original and unpolished vintage watches (except for unschooled buyers).


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[springer]

Some collectors like a nice unpolished case, some prefer a "ratty" unpolished case, some prefer a professionally restored case, some prefer a case that that has received just a polish, but most prefer a vintage Rolex with a decent case without excessive dings, dents, scratches or an over-polished case.

Buy and enjoy what you like!!! You have many choices when it comes to vintage.

[roh123]

Personally I hate anything recut. Regardless if it has been laser welded or just seen a lapping machine. It kills a watch for me. I guess it is okay when a case have been badly polished as it restores the original shape. I just don’t like it. Vintage sports watches is rarely so rare that you can’t find decent examples with a nice dial and good enough case. But if you are on a budget I guess a recut case is better than a badly polished one.

Each to their own though.

[springer]

Originally Posted by roh123

Personally I hate anything recut. Regardless if it has been laser welded or just seen a lapping machine. It kills a watch for me. I guess it is okay when a case have been badly polished as it restores the original shape. I just don’t like it. Vintage sports watches is rarely so rare that you can’t find decent examples with a nice dial and good enough case. But if you are on a budget I guess a recut case is better than a badly polished one.

Each to their own though.

I agree with the comment "to each their own." And, with that said, I personally hate the term "recut" since the watch case is actually being refinished. As I wrote, there are all types of watches, pick the one you like and go for it.

I agree with Roh...to each their own though.

[motoikkyu]

If a watch is really rare, that is 50 or fewer known examples, it will be valuable if it is a desirable or noteworthy watch, and condition will dictate the value, but rarity is what establishes the value. With many sport Rolex, there were tens of thousands made. So,the true museum-quality, investment grade examples will be the unworn boxed sets, with everything else dictated by the market/desirability. Attempting to pass off a worn but restored example as new-mint with period correct box, etc. is a shoddy practice and none on this forum would embrace that. That's why on the more valuable items, provenance and documentation become more important. I will never own a museum-grade watch. Some of my pieces might be of value to collectors or enthusiasts in the future, but let's be brutally honest with ourselves: wristwatches and their value will go the way of pocket watches. I remember pocket watches that sold for over $3k when I started collecting, most are available now for $900. Nowadays, many folks don't wear wristwatches, or choose the computer-style smartwatch, this trend is likely to continue.

[baumare]

Well my own is that I don't like 60' years hold watch with new laser welded sharp lugs, I've seen photos of 4 digits sports model with restored bevel I can see my reflection on it, not my taste.

I'm not against the concept of laser welding, new technology that help preserve nice watches are welcome, is just that personally I don't like the NOS look in a non NOS watch.

If needed the best thing for me would be to have a watch restored to original factory spec but with an artificial patina that recall the condition of a real Vintage.
The problem with this is that, if it is well done, in the future could be presented to someone as "unpolished" for a premium.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by springer

I agree with the comment "to each their own." And, with that said, I personally hate the term "recut" since the watch case is actually being refinished. As I wrote, there are all types of watches, pick the one you like and go for it.

I agree with Roh...to each their own though.

To most there’s a difference between polished and recut. A nicely polished case can still be awesome while a badly one is terrible. A recut case is recut. Some like them. Some don’t.

Watchmakers aren’t using lapping machines to polish watches. Which is what I refer to when I say recut. But feel free to disagree. No worries.

[subx]

I got in the collecting watches back in the 1990's back then it was all about the dial,
then came the 2010's where it was all about the case and lugs
now with laser welding ... it may go finally back to all about the dial :)

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by springer

I personally hate the term "recut" since the watch case is actually being refinished.

Agree. "Recut" sounds like something nefarious, which it isn't.

"It's been detailed" or "it's been refinished" are much more appropriate.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Agree. "Recut" sounds like something nefarious, which it isn't.

"It's been detailed" or "it's been refinished" are much more appropriate.

Most importantly is that people understand what kind of work that has been done to a watch. Case being refinished is at least to me a bit blurry for those that do not understand how watches are worked on. Recut is as clear as it could be. Most cases that gets this treatment comes out better than what it was before. I don’t see much difference to one that gets laser welded to remove prior damage and then recut to shape it up. Are those watches not detailed or refinished? Let’s call things for what it is. :)

I see dealers now calling recut cases as polished. I would prefer if polished watches were called polished and recut watches were called just that. Depending on condition either could be better.

To me it is somewhat weird how recut cases are all fine and laser welded are all wrong. Once a case is recut there’s literally no way to know if material was added or not. Usually though no one spends the money to laser weld unless it is worth it. Meaning it is a rare enough watch. It’s not a quick or cheap process to do.