How does unclear serial numbers affect value?

[zxing]

I've read that it is common for vintage Rolexes to have scratched serial numbers due to wear with the end links. If the number is very worn, but visible under the right conditions, a loupe, etc, how does this affect value? What about totally unreadable?

[Kingair]

We'll if you can't read the number . . . how can you check the history on the watch ?

If you don't need it or want to know it . . . go ahead . . .

Personal choices ;-)

HAGOne

[GMTGuy1675]

Originally Posted by zxing

What about totally unreadable?

I'm just a Rolex/vintage watch neophyte, but totally unreadable serial number? RUN in the opposite direction, I would think!

[TimeToGo]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

One thing is that the numbers are unreadable made by the rubbing of the bracelet/strap onto the case.

The second is that they were rubbed off intentionally (NOT GOOD)...

[Keeperoftime]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

One thing is that the numbers are unreadable made by the rubbing of the bracelet/strap onto the case.

The second is that they were rubbed off intentionally (NOT GOOD)...

Exactly.
Avoid.

[zxing]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I do know to avoid numbers that are intentionally rubbed off... but my question is how does bracelet wear on the numbers affect the value?

[Paul]

Some folk are happy to buy vintage Rolex with compromised serial numbers ... scratched / illegible / totally gone .... if the price is right.

In particular though, once it becomes illegible, it's a no-go for many serious collectors.
Less of an issue for a fella who just fancies buying an old Rolex.

If you intend to keep it - go for it.
If you are a mad flipper - perhaps think twice before you buy .

[Goiguidoc]

According to Antiquorum's specialists, If yo can have a written authentication by Rolex, then the price should be affected by 10% to 15%.
Rolex will engrave the words "illisible" (unreadable in French) inside the case back + a number.
Otherwise, it is better to stay away.

[yessir69]

Originally Posted by zxing

Thanks for the replies everyone. I do know to avoid numbers that are intentionally rubbed off... but my question is how does bracelet wear on the numbers affect the value?

It's like an odometer. Higher mileage watches don't fetch the best prices.

[jhupp]

Thank goodness for the new engraved rehauts. I don't think I'll have to worry about this on my Expy 2.

[dddrees]

The problem with an unreadable serial number, is that serial numbers are used to determine the characteristics of whether a watch would be expected to have certain charecteristics.

Whether it should be a MK1 dial vs a Mark IV dial for instance in regards to the expected serial number range. For instance whether a Red Sub with a Red Dial vs a Red Sub with white dial would be expected with this watch case. In a lot of cases the Mark I would be more valuable. So lets say that some one took a Red Sub white dial case and erased the serial number. Then they matched that case up with a Red Sub Mark II dial. This could increase the value of the watch significantly.

This is an example of why serial numbers are so important to most die hard collectors. Take away the serial number and it's more dificult if not impossible to establish whether the watch is actually what it is supposed to be.

Most diehard collectors demand the best and don't want a watch cobbled together from different watches. Take away the serial number and you reduce if not in some cases greatly reduce the value of some watches. But then again maybe it wasn't really worth that much in the first place.

[jedly1]

its all about hard to read or impossible to read.....if its so close you cant decide then the best bet is to let Rolex be the judge. If a watch serial cant be read, then generally unless in special circumstances, they wont service and it will be refused...because at the end of the day they have no way of knowing if it is stolen.

thats the line in the sand.

watches that cross this line in my experience sell for about 50-60% of market value.

[CharlieMae]

I don't think there is any definitive discount percentage for a watch with worn or missing serial numbers. Some people will pass completely, others don't really care. Some people expect 50% off and others maybe 10% off.

Regardless the simple answer is that it is definitely worth LESS with worn or missing numbers than with legible and complete numbers.

[freeagent]

I have a replacement case from Rolex, all of you guys who make a big deal about numbers, is for nothing really. It's actually from a second run of cases they made heheh. The value has not changed one bit.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by freeagent

I have a replacement case from Rolex, all of you guys who make a big deal about numbers, is for nothing really. It's actually from a second run of cases they made heheh. The value has not changed one bit.

Well, Rolex replacement cases usually fall within a certain serial number range, and therefore can be identified as just that, a replacement case. Some people don't have a problem with that. Same with a service dial, hands, bezel insert, etc ... However, other collectors stay away from a replacement case because it's not original to the rest of the watch.

On the OP's original question, it can definitely affect value if the serial numbers cannot be read at all. However, Rolex can determine the serial number on the case by the movement number. This happened with a 5512 I had serviced awhile back (see photos). I had it serviced at RSC New York and they were able to confirm the case serial number from the movement serial number, because those two numbers are recorded together when the watch leaves the factory. Still, I think they did it on my Sub because most of the numbers could be read. Not sure they'd do it if none or most of the numbers were illegible. I ended up selling this 5512 and getting top market value for it, mainly because I had the Rolex service papers and the confirmation of the serial number.

[Goiguidoc]

This is exactly what Antiquorum told me.
If you have the Rolex service papers,then the price of the watch is not too much affected.
Some collectors might of course stay away.
BTW replacement case numbers start by 444.

Originally Posted by swish77

Well, Rolex replacement cases usually fall within a certain serial number range, and therefore can be identified as just that, a replacement case. Some people don't have a problem with that. Same with a service dial, hands, bezel insert, etc ... However, other collectors stay away from a replacement case because it's not original to the rest of the watch.

On the OP's original question, it can definitely affect value if the serial numbers cannot be read at all. However, Rolex can determine the serial number on the case by the movement number. This happened with a 5512 I had serviced awhile back (see photos). I had it serviced at RSC New York and they were able to confirm the case serial number from the movement serial number, because those two numbers are recorded together when the watch leaves the factory. Still, I think they did it on my Sub because most of the numbers could be read. Not sure they'd do it if none or most of the numbers were illegible. I ended up selling this 5512 and getting top market value for it, mainly because I had the Rolex service papers and the confirmation of the serial number.

[oceandweller]

Originally Posted by Goiguidoc

This is exactly what Antiquorum told me.
If you have the Rolex service papers,then the price of the watch is not too much affected.
Some collectors might of course stay away.
BTW replacement case numbers start by 444.

I intend buying, on behalf of a friend, just a simple vintage Rolex Day-Date 1803 of the early 60's not deemed to be collectible, like the Submariner which number has to be totally legible, for one to decide whether it should be a red or white, whether it should have the Mk 1 or Mk 2 or 3 dial and whether gilt, matte or glossy, etc.

This Rolex DD in question has its 1st digit serial number totally unreadable, while the other six digits, very clear. I consulted the RSC and they said, they would service it and on the service certificate, they will print only the six numbers that at legible.

I asked them, whether they would send the case back to Geneva for the missing number to be re-inscribed. The answer is, no.

Using the movement number as a reference, will the local RSC be able to discern, with the assistance from Geneva, the actual first digit that is unreadable. Judging from the style of the dial, hands and hour markers, the missing number is most likely to be '2' and not '1' (too early) or '3' (too late).

Kindly advise.

[Goiguidoc]

You have the correct information: Rolex NEVER re-engraves cases.
What Rolex HQ can do is use a powerful magnifier to check the unreadable numbers.
It sometimes works.
However, it might cost a bit (shipping, service,...)
IMHO it is worth the effort for a rare vintage model.
For a DD, I would just pass.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by oceandweller

I intend buying, on behalf of a friend, just a simple vintage Rolex Day-Date 1803 of the early 60's not deemed to be collectible, like the Submariner which number has to be totally legible, for one to decide whether it should be a red or white, whether it should have the Mk 1 or Mk 2 or 3 dial and whether gilt, matte or glossy, etc.

This Rolex DD in question has its 1st digit serial number totally unreadable, while the other six digits, very clear. I consulted the RSC and they said, they would service it and on the service certificate, they will print only the six numbers that at legible.

I asked them, whether they would send the case back to Geneva for the missing number to be re-inscribed. The answer is, no.

Using the movement number as a reference, will the local RSC be able to discern, with the assistance from Geneva, the actual first digit that is unreadable. Judging from the style of the dial, hands and hour markers, the missing number is most likely to be '2' and not '1' (too early) or '3' (too late).

Kindly advise.

As when I had my 5512 serviced, an RSC should be able to figure out the correct case serial number through the movement number. However, I'm not sure there's a hard and fast rule to that. They did it for my Submariner that way, but who knows how they would handle it with another Rolex at another RSC. Certainly worth a try though. Good luck!

[Kingair]

If you love the watch . . . .
How far do you go for a precious beloved ?

HAGOne

[larryccf]

Originally Posted by Goiguidoc

According to Antiquorum's specialists, If yo can have a written authentication by Rolex, then the price should be affected by 10% to 15%.
Rolex will engrave the words "illisible" (unreadable in French) inside the case back + a number.
Otherwise, it is better to stay away.

while i won't argue the percentages i will contest taking the opinion of the same Antiquorum that authenticated as legit a totally bogus "tudor USMC prototype"??? i'd prefer making a reliance on Baghdad Bob's opinion (or whatever Saddam Husseim's public spokesperson was during the first gulf war) before accepting the word of the self-appointed expert Antiquorum

if you aren't aware of the fiasco, it wasn't that long ago ( 2003-2004) that they authenticated one of those "prototypes" at their NYC auction, after the whole watch community had become aware the thing was the result of a japanese hobbyist playing with fanciful designs, then whoever the singapore company was (Rocky Watches/Ken Sato) that produced a few hundred, then having those turning up on ebay around the world from the US, Canada, Australia & UK, being offered as "one of 15-20" prototypes produced for eval by the USMC and Navy Seals and sourced from a retired navy seal - and selling for $10-20K - and then even after being outed as a fictional design that never existed, Antiquorum inspects one and authenticates it, and it sells for $106,000 only for the buyer to learn it was a fake and had to sue them to get his money returned

oh yeah, i want to know antiquorum's opinon

sorry Goiguidoc - not meant as a slam on you, but just venting my anger at the arrogance of antiquorum to even open their mouth in the watch world

here's a quick link to a descript of the debacle http://corvuswatch.blogspot.com/2011...never-was.html

and another http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=924


read down to anchim's post " assemble one from parts in china, send it to antiquorum and then you are rich"

[oceandweller]

Originally Posted by Goiguidoc

You have the correct information: Rolex NEVER re-engraves cases.
What Rolex HQ can do is use a powerful magnifier to check the unreadable numbers.
It sometimes works.
However, it might cost a bit (shipping, service,...)
IMHO it is worth the effort for a rare vintage model.
For a DD, I would just pass.

Your advice is appreciated and I shall inform my friend.