Need an education

[GRabens]

I don’t want to offend anybody here, but I don’t understand the popularity of the grand Seiko. I used to wear a Seiko when I was younger and couldn’t afford a Rolex. Now I see these grand Seiko‘s are as much as some Rolex watches. I’m not sure I would ever pick a grand Seiko over a Rolex. What am I missing? I just am stuck on looking at Seiko as a couple hundred dollar watch, not a $6000-$8000 watch. There’s Got to be a reason why these are so popular and I just haven’t learned the reason why yet. Thanks for any insight.

[Old Expat Beast]

Grand Seiko was already a rival to Rolex in the 1960s and 1970s, but only in Japan, because GS, and its counterpart King Seiko, were only available in Japan. But a major rival they were. Seiko, for example, came out with a quickset date about 10 years before Rolex, and a quickset Day-Date (even in their cheaper watches) 20 years before Rolex. GS also used hardened stainless steel and sapphire crystals first.

GS/KS mechanical movements also caused the Swiss to shut down their chronometer competitions in the late 1960s, after losing so badly to Seiko that they could only win with (ironically) Omega's quartz movements.

You can find out all about that episode in Watch Geek's amusing Youtube video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayUT5WfkHrA&t=16s

These days it's still a rivalry, with marketing and brand recognition arguably being the main areas where Rolex really comes out on top.

See this Watchfinder video titled Here's Why Grand Seiko is Better Than Rolex for more current reasons.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Grand Seiko was already a rival to Rolex in the 1960s and 1970s, but only in Japan, because GS, and its counterpart King Seiko, were only available in Japan. But a major rival they were. Seiko, for example, came out with a quickset date about 10 years before Rolex, and a quickset Day-Date (even in their cheaper watches) 20 years before Rolex. GS also used hardened stainless steel and sapphire crystals first.

GS/KS mechanical movements also caused the Swiss to shut down their chronometer competitions in the late 1960s, after losing so badly to Seiko that they could only win with (ironically) Omega's quartz movements.

You can find out all about that episode in Watch Geek's amusing Youtube video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayUT5WfkHrA&t=16s

These days it's still a rivalry, with marketing and brand recognition arguably being the main areas where Rolex really comes out on top.

See this Watchfinder video titled Here's Why Grand Seiko is Better Than Rolex for more current reasons.

[1William]

Good information. Thanks.

[pandrew6l]

Besides the technological aspects of GS stated above by Adam, GS is still a bargain when compared with Rolex. Where can you find a DJ 41 at $8,000 ?

[INC]

IMO Seiko has never been about branding outside of Japan, so their watches get a lot less attention than a Rolex. Watch this beauty for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQYF_DU72vw

I think in many ways Seiko is more enthausiast of watchmaking than Rolex. However, since their high-end watches are expensive and their low-end watches are mostly uninteresting, so the GS is the most rational choice, if only because a GS costs much less to maintain than a Rolex.

And there is one more difference: Since there is not so much hype around Seiko, you can almost walk down the street with an "expensive" GS, while in some cases you have to think about it with a "cheap" Rolex.

[cajunron]

The level of detail in regards to finishing, technical advancements and value, has led to Grand Seiko getting a lot of attention from the watch community. While Rolex is undoubtedly King of the horology world, GS has come a long way in recent years due to their commitment of excellence in the building of a quality product. I think the phenomenon that Rolex is experiencing right now is mostly driven by social media and has made the purchase of Rolex watches practically impossible, especially for the everyman that doesn't have an established relationship with an authorized Rolex retailer. This has opened the door to customers looking at alternative avenues outside of the Rolex brand. (*)


* Comments are my opinion only. Your opinion may vary.

[Rebel]

GS has some fantastic watches.

[Fencer28]

The level of finishing on grand seiko is at or better than Patek level. It is perfection. Even on the macro lens you will not find any imperfections at all. The movements are unique and very innovative. Not just spring drive but the high beat movements too. Most of their watches are below 10k. In this price range you will not find a better made watch period. It is the best value proposition in the watch industry.

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by Fencer28

The level of finishing on grand seiko is at or better than Patek level. It is perfection. Even on the macro lens you will not find any imperfections at all. The movements are unique and very innovative. Not just spring drive but the high beat movements too. Most of their watches are below 10k. In this price range you will not find a better made watch period. It is the best value proposition in the watch industry.

100%, But they have watches priced at $50k -$180k as well. The spring drive and 9F series is well above Rolex technology. And don't even try to compare the accuracy of Rolex to the Spring drive and especially the 9F series. If your 35-40 years old, you may very well have passed away before the 1st service of a 9F is needed.

Grand Seiko is superior in every aspect to the Rolex except for hype/ resale. Fit, finish, accuracy, Dials, service intervals you name it. These timepieces are hand assembled by no more than 2 master artizens. Every detail exquisitely carried out. Every single item used to manufacture a GS is completely Grand Seiko. Nothing is purchased from other vendors. And no vendors were purchased so the brand could claim in-house. IMO the difference between Rolex and GS is simple. For GS there buying a handcrafted watch, With Rolex there buying the name.

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by GRabens

I don’t want to offend anybody here, but I don’t understand the popularity of the grand Seiko. I used to wear a Seiko when I was younger and couldn’t afford a Rolex. Now I see these grand Seiko‘s are as much as some Rolex watches. I’m not sure I would ever pick a grand Seiko over a Rolex. What am I missing? I just am stuck on looking at Seiko as a couple hundred dollar watch, not a $6000-$8000 watch. There’s Got to be a reason why these are so popular and I just haven’t learned the reason why yet. Thanks for any insight.

Wear one, get a loupe, Admire it, After spending some time with it you will completely understand. That's the best I can explain it.

[Aconitase]

Seiko : Toyota :: Grand Seiko : Lexus

[Reikolexguy]

I currently own both GS & Rolex watches, so I hope my two cents are worth reading.

I’m probably wrong but I think both companies are the only vertically integrated watch manufacturers in the world. This means they manufacture every single component of the watch in-house.

What I love about both companies is that they are constantly making incremental improvements and pushing the envelope of their existing lineups.

Rolex came up with their 32xx series movement that improved on the power reserve, robustness and anti magnetism capabilities of the previous generation. Rolex movements are arguably the most solid, low maintenance, well thought out workhorses in the industry.

It really isn’t as easy as it seems to make what was already an excellent movement even better. Rolex Superlative chronometer test standards that exceed industry standards is also an admirable accomplishment.

I like how Rolex pays just as much attention to its basic offerings as to its most luxurious, and this is the world’s biggest mechanical wristwatch manufacturer by volume by a country mile.

In the case of GS, there’s arguably been a horological leap in recent years with their new dual impulse escapement for its mechanical hi-beats and an even more accurate spring drive series (as if it wasn’t deadly accurate already).

The GS hi-beat accuracy standards, though somewhat lacking on paper compared to Rolex, performs far better in real life. Though This is based entirely on my personal observation.

GS guarantees accuracy of its hi-beat watches between -3 - +5/day. My GS hi-beats have never gone beyond +2/day. Recommended service intervals are far more frequent than Rolex.

My spring drive watches… I stopped tracking their accuracy because they’ve not lost a second even after months of operations.

I haven’t looked at the finishing of my watches under a loupe, but a casual, cursory glance is probably sufficient for a layman to judge that the finish on a GS is better than a Rolex, particularly the hour indices / hands. It’s really razor sharp and mirror like. To use a bad stereotype, it’s samurai sharp.

It’s ridiculously well finished for a watch at the price points that GS is competing in. I can’t emphasise enough how superb the finishing is for a <US$10k GS watch.

The cases of my GS mechanical watches are a lot thicker than my Rolexes, though they are no less comfortable since the lugs curve downward and hug the wrist well.

The Rolex bracelets though, are simply best in class in terms of comfort and user friendliness. GS brackets still feel cheap and rickety, especially their dive watches.

Service network, Rolex is also the undisputed king. It’s far easier to find an RSC.

The biggest problem I face with GS is that all GS watches (spring drive or mechanical) are sent to Japan for servicing. And their servicing cost doesn’t come cheap, sometimes costing more than to service the Rolex. This is compounded by increased frequency of service (especially the hi-beat).

While Rolex continues to hew to their identity as a luxury company by ensuring that the entire package, watch and all feels luxurious, GS philosophy seems to focus more on engineering and taking simply made watches to perfection.

There’s no doubt that in terms of luxury and perceptions of it, Rolex just knocks GS out of the park.

I associate GS with stereotypical Japanese discipline and pursuit of perfection made simple.

I associate Rolex with luxury and robustness. It just feels tough yet regal.

They basically have a one liner on every user manual that pretty much just tells you to occasionally wash your Rolex with soap and water.

The care instructions on my GS user manual though.. is far more elaborate. GS doesn’t even recommend washing its watches under running water. Among other things, they recommend that you soak it in water and gently soap it etc. my GS certainly gives me the impression that it’s far more fragile than my Rolex.

These are just some of the reasons I love both brands and am an avid collector of their watches. Both have very different philosophies / modus operandi, yet both companies inspire legions of fans like no other brand.


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[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by Reikolexguy

Rolex came up with their 32xx series movement that improved on the power reserve, robustness and anti magnetism capabilities of the previous generation. Rolex movements are arguably the most solid, low maintenance, well thought out workhorses in the industry.


The biggest problem I face with GS is that all GS watches (spring drive or mechanical) are sent to Japan for servicing. And their servicing cost doesn’t come cheap, sometimes costing more than to service the Rolex. This is compounded by increased frequency of service (especially the hi-beat).


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Interesting write-up but if you Google Rolex 32xx issues you'll find a lot of talk about ongoing problems with that movt series, here and on other forums and sites.

Also, I'm not sure about Spring Drive but I'm pretty sure you can get modern GS mechanicals serviced here in Hong Kong and at other Seiko Service Centres worldwide.

[asiparks]

My Spring Drive was repaired very much here in the US...Mahwah, New Jersey.
Took somewhere between 3 and 4 weeks....

[Locust]

After New Jersey ruined my sla039 by scratching the hell out of it. I’ll never send New Jersey another watch. Ever. I agree with reikolexguy’s write up.

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by Fencer28

The level of finishing on grand seiko is at or better than Patek level. It is perfection. Even on the macro lens you will not find any imperfections at all. The movements are unique and very innovative. Not just spring drive but the high beat movements too. Most of their watches are below 10k. In this price range you will not find a better made watch period. It is the best value proposition in the watch industry.

All you need to know.

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by DJ2020

100%, But they have watches priced at $50k -$180k as well. The spring drive and 9F series is well above Rolex technology. And don't even try to compare the accuracy of Rolex to the Spring drive and especially the 9F series. If your 35-40 years old, you may very well have passed away before the 1st service of a 9F is needed.

Grand Seiko is superior in every aspect to the Rolex except for hype/ resale. Fit, finish, accuracy, Dials, service intervals you name it. These timepieces are hand assembled by no more than 2 master artizens. Every detail exquisitely carried out. Every single item used to manufacture a GS is completely Grand Seiko. Nothing is purchased from other vendors. And no vendors were purchased so the brand could claim in-house. IMO the difference between Rolex and GS is simple. For GS there buying a handcrafted watch, With Rolex there buying the name.

Excellent! As they say: Wear a Rolex to impress others - wear a GS to impress yourself.

[duquephart]

The bottom line is that Rolex is, and has always been, a very well made and dependable watch. But certainly not the only one this can be said about. There are others that are just as well made, just as dependable - but also much better in terms of movement and finishing. GS is clearly one of those others.

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by pandrew6l

Besides the technological aspects of GS stated above by Adam, GS is still a bargain when compared with Rolex. Where can you find a DJ 41 at $8,000 ?

Omega Globemaster.

[sski]

GS may tangibly be 'on par' or 'better' than Rolex but, when its time to commemorate an life achievement (personal or professional,) only the Crown will do- let's be perfectly honest with ourselves here. If you take the intangibles into account- Rolex > Grand Seiko hands down.

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by sski

GS may tangibly be 'on par' or 'better' than Rolex but, when its time to commemorate an life achievement (personal or professional,) only the Crown will do- let's be perfectly honest with ourselves here. If you take the intangibles into account- Rolex > Grand Seiko hands down.

Why is that? Can you back that up? You telling us that a A. Lange or a Patek or a ------------------------ would not do? Put down the Rolex kool-aid and get real! Rolex is a very good watch but in the grand scheme of things as applied to fine watches Rolex is decidedly middle of the pack.

[sski]

Originally Posted by duquephart

Why is that? Can you back that up? You telling us that a A. Lange or a Patek or a ------------------------ would not do. Put down the Rolex kool-aid and get real!

let's stick to the topic please- Rolex vs GS. Stop bringing in others.
85-90% of the time Rolex will be the pick to 'crown any life achievement.'

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by sski

let's stick to the topic please- Rolex vs GS. Stop bringing in others.
85-90% of the time Rolex will be the pick to 'crown any life achievement.'

I'll stick to the topic as soon as you learn the meaning of the word "objective" rather than just reguritating Rolex hype.

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by sski

let's stick to the topic please- Rolex vs GS. Stop bringing in others.
85-90% of the time Rolex will be the pick to 'crown any life achievement.'

Your statement that "only rolex will do" eliminates all other watches, not just GS. Is that sticking to the topic?

[sski]

Originally Posted by duquephart

I'll stick to the topic as soon as you learn the meaning of the word "objective" rather than just reguritating Rolex hype.

you sound like you're waiting for a GMT at an AD.

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by sski

you sound like you're waiting for a GMT at an AD.

If I wanted a rolex I would have one. If I wanted ten I would have ten. There many other fine watches out there, a few of which I prefer. Go hand out with the rolex zombies - they understand you.

[Locust]

Both of you chill out

[Reikolexguy]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Interesting write-up but if you Google Rolex 32xx issues you'll find a lot of talk about ongoing problems with that movt series, here and on other forums and sites.

Also, I'm not sure about Spring Drive but I'm pretty sure you can get modern GS mechanicals serviced here in Hong Kong and at other Seiko Service Centres worldwide.

Thanks for highlighting the inaccuracies in my post.

My local service centre still doesn’t service any mechanical or SD GS. And I was told by them that all GS are sent straight back to Japan for servicing.


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[Reikolexguy]

Originally Posted by asiparks

My Spring Drive was repaired very much here in the US...Mahwah, New Jersey.
Took somewhere between 3 and 4 weeks....

Thanks for the update! Looks like the GS service network has expanded.

I should’ve clarified with my service centre if it’s only in my country where any incoming GS are sent to Japan for service / repair.


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