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Old 4 September 2018, 05:26 PM   #61
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And the 5320 case is stamped. Excuse being to give sharper edges...i think to do more quicker!!! But then even RWS (i loved the way he made the case out of 3 bands and that sold me on being truly hsnd made) now seems to mill with cnc. Oh well
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Old 4 September 2018, 11:17 PM   #62
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And the 5320 case is stamped. Excuse being to give sharper edges...i think to do more quicker!!! But then even RWS (i loved the way he made the case out of 3 bands and that sold me on being truly hsnd made) now seems to mill with cnc. Oh well
RWS has always used some CNC in his serially produced watches to get the wr to 5atm. Have a look at his wonderful YouTube series if you haven't had a chance yet. He really takes you through how he works.

Patek, at 50,000 pieces a year is going to be very different than Roger's 10-12 a year. The issue is how Patek has changed as it's gone from 5,000 to 50,000. Although I'm not a lange fanboy, I do have the sense that Lange is, in it's own way, now similar to what patek used to be in terms of dedication to hand finishing across its entire line.

Patek is still great, but maybe a different Patek than before. Understanding that, and the when and how of it, is what I would like to understand better.
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Old 4 September 2018, 11:48 PM   #63
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^^^ agree but with only 12 pieces a year it would be nice uf RWS did handmake his case versus mill. CnC is necessary for small pieces where accuracy is important
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Old 5 September 2018, 12:06 AM   #64
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RWS has always used some CNC in his serially produced watches to get the wr to 5atm. Have a look at his wonderful YouTube series if you haven't had a chance yet. He really takes you through how he works.

Patek, at 50,000 pieces a year is going to be very different than Roger's 10-12 a year. The issue is how Patek has changed as it's gone from 5,000 to 50,000. Although I'm not a lange fanboy, I do have the sense that Lange is, in it's own way, now similar to what patek used to be in terms of dedication to hand finishing across its entire line.

Patek is still great, but maybe a different Patek than before. Understanding that, and the when and how of it, is what I would like to understand better.
With Patek and the volume of watches it produces it does depend on the actual piece as to the level of hand finishing - pieces produced in Patek Philippe’s separate high-complication department have an amazing attention to detail and the higher level of hand work carried out in the manually-intensive atelier is evident in the finished product. The additional level of hand finishing produced by the high-complication department is clearly demonstrated when comparing the 5370 to the 5270/5170.
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Old 5 September 2018, 02:46 AM   #65
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With Patek and the volume of watches it produces it does depend on the actual piece as to the level of hand finishing - pieces produced in Patek Philippe’s separate high-complication department have an amazing attention to detail and the higher level of hand work carried out in the manually-intensive atelier is evident in the finished product. The additional level of hand finishing produced by the high-complication department is clearly demonstrated when comparing the 5370 to the 5270/5170.

Yes, granted that for sure.
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Old 5 September 2018, 02:50 AM   #66
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^^^ agree but with only 12 pieces a year it would be nice uf RWS did handmake his case versus mill. CnC is necessary for small pieces where accuracy is important
I think you should see his YouTube videos. You'll see that Roger's case making is far from automated and be assured that there is good reason for everything he does as a watchmaker. He's not cutting corners. Have a look and see.
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Old 5 September 2018, 03:23 AM   #67
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With Patek and the volume of watches it produces it does depend on the actual piece as to the level of hand finishing - pieces produced in Patek Philippe’s separate high-complication department have an amazing attention to detail and the higher level of hand work carried out in the manually-intensive atelier is evident in the finished product. The additional level of hand finishing produced by the high-complication department is clearly demonstrated when comparing the 5370 to the 5270/5170.
Is the finishing really that discernibly different? Not challenging you, would just love to see the difference for myself.
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Old 5 September 2018, 04:22 AM   #68
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Is the finishing really that discernibly different? Not challenging you, would just love to see the difference for myself.
Bring a loupe!
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Old 5 September 2018, 05:33 AM   #69
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With Patek and the volume of watches it produces it does depend on the actual piece as to the level of hand finishing - pieces produced in Patek Philippe’s separate high-complication department have an amazing attention to detail and the higher level of hand work carried out in the manually-intensive atelier is evident in the finished product. The additional level of hand finishing produced by the high-complication department is clearly demonstrated when comparing the 5370 to the 5270/5170.
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Is the finishing really that discernibly different? Not challenging you, would just love to see the difference for myself.
I have examined the movements of 5204P, 5370P and 5170P side by side. Even without a loupe it was evident movement finishings of 5204P and 5370P were better than 5170P
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Old 5 September 2018, 08:12 AM   #70
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Is the finishing really that discernibly different? Not challenging you, would just love to see the difference for myself.
I have been lucky enough to examine all 3 pieces together with my loupe. My photography skills are not up to the task but owner extroadinare Gary G has done some great comparison shots in his articles for Quillandpad.
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Old 5 September 2018, 12:51 PM   #71
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I agree high end Pateks may have better finishes such as black polish on the hammers of a minute repeater, however they are not immune to mistakes. Someone already linked this but I will link it again.

https://www.watchprosite.com/patek-p...01/1525270127/
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Old 24 September 2018, 03:40 PM   #72
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Really interesting discussion, thanks for the insight guys and much more reading to be done!
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Old 15 November 2018, 04:47 AM   #73
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An update: A member of watchprosite kindly posted pictures of his perpetual calendar and time only Pateks with some movement shots.

"All pictures on the left is from a 5140 with 240 Q movement, while all pictures on the right is from a 5120 with the base 240 movement.  The watch with the 240 Q movement costs almost 4 times of the watch with the base 240 movement costs, this is obviously mainly due to the perpetual calendar complication.  But is there any difference in finish between the two?"




The result is that you can see the vertical lines of mechanical anglage on both movements.
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Old 15 November 2018, 03:37 PM   #74
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Well, finissage does seem to vary more with Patek today (circa 70,000 pieces per year) than with Lange (circa 5,000 pieces per year) or Philippe Stern era Patek production.

The 5270P I examined in Geneva this year, however, did sport clearly better finishing than my 5270G-001 (built in 2011).

Consistent with the price point theory from a few posts above mine, the movement finishing on my 2018 5204P-011 is very nice. More elaborate than my 2017 5320G or 2008 5450P. IMHO, all three pieces have equally exceptional design and execution on the dial, plus rate accuracy. Perhaps Thierry Stern has decided that labor cost for movement gingerbread will be spent and charged only on his highest-priced pieces?

FP Journe offers very nice finissage, btw.
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Old 15 November 2018, 09:32 PM   #75
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Finishing quality was recently discussed on the Purists Pro website. There were a few people complaining of falling standards at Patek, but no one could back it up.

Well worth a read https://www.watchprosite.com/patek-p...0331.10258546/
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Old 16 November 2018, 04:57 AM   #76
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An update: A member of watchprosite kindly posted pictures of his perpetual calendar and time only Pateks with some movement shots.

"All pictures on the left is from a 5140 with 240 Q movement, while all pictures on the right is from a 5120 with the base 240 movement.  The watch with the 240 Q movement costs almost 4 times of the watch with the base 240 movement costs, this is obviously mainly due to the perpetual calendar complication.  But is there any difference in finish between the two?"




The result is that you can see the vertical lines of mechanical anglage on both movements.

Lange does the same thing
Amazing work
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Old 17 November 2018, 05:53 AM   #77
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Finishing quality was recently discussed on the Purists Pro website. There were a few people complaining of falling standards at Patek, but no one could back it up.

Well worth a read https://www.watchprosite.com/patek-p...0331.10258546/
Well, the pictures posted do show a lack of hand-finishing. So, if there was hand-finishing back in the past, then that would be backing it up, indeed
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Old 17 November 2018, 05:56 AM   #78
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Lange does the same thing
Amazing work
Interesting answer! Do you happen to know of anywhere online where people have posted pictures if Lange movements showing mechanical finishing marks on the anglage or other signs?
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Old 17 November 2018, 05:59 AM   #79
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Well, the pictures posted do show a lack of hand-finishing. So, if there was hand-finishing back in the past, then that would be backing it up, indeed
Just to save me trawling through all the posts, could you post a picture of two comparable movements (the same calibre would be ideal), one from “back in the past” and one modern? Thanks
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Old 17 November 2018, 07:34 AM   #80
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Just to save me trawling through all the posts, could you post a picture of two comparable movements (the same calibre would be ideal), one from “back in the past” and one modern? Thanks
Ah, so you want me to trawl for you??

Challenge accepted, as the kids say.

Here's a pic of the cal 215, one of Patek's previous gen workhorse movements. Notice how the ghostly apparition of the vertical lines of mechanical finishing appear in the lower level of finishing (they have been hand finished away) and the hand-finished anglage itself on the upper tier is flawless.

I'll likely post this on watchprosite sometime, so thanks for pushing me to look.
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Old 17 November 2018, 07:20 PM   #81
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Ah, so you want me to trawl for you??



Challenge accepted, as the kids say.



Here's a pic of the cal 215, one of Patek's previous gen workhorse movements. Notice how the ghostly apparition of the vertical lines of mechanical finishing appear in the lower level of finishing (they have been hand finished away) and the hand-finished anglage itself on the upper tier is flawless.



I'll likely post this on watchprosite sometime, so thanks for pushing me to look.


this is a nice one pal
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Old 18 November 2018, 02:05 AM   #82
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Old 18 November 2018, 01:30 PM   #83
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That looks like a rattrapante, a grand complication. That's what all Patek movements should look like. This thread is about investigating how most Patek movements below a grand complication are not finished to this standard.
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Old 18 November 2018, 02:52 PM   #84
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Agreed!

Rusell996 has the splits engaged for the movement pic, thank you.
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Old 18 November 2018, 03:37 PM   #85
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5370p?
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Old 18 November 2018, 06:12 PM   #86
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5370p?
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Old 19 November 2018, 02:45 AM   #87
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How did you figure that out?

It looks just like my 5204 from that perspective, hah hah!
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Old 19 November 2018, 03:19 PM   #88
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If you.look at PP Instagram accou t they have excellent videos on all aspects of the watch manufacture process including dials and bracelets.
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Old 7 December 2018, 10:31 PM   #89
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Old 11 May 2020, 03:19 PM   #90
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Bump.
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