geneva seal!

[asadtiger]

I googled around a bit but haven't discovered why a Geneva Seal is sooo prestigious..I mean on timezone.com I read that it has twelve criterias but they were just like: bridge shiuld have polished surfaces, rubies shud connect this and that but It did in no way talk about accuracy or anything that guaranteed anything..as in C.O.S.C assures accuracy but what does in performance Geneva Seal ensure..please enlighten me on this and tell me why when Rolex makes so many gud movements and gets COSC they dont try getting Geneva Seal?..please enlighten me and thank you very much for the help..the seal does ensure quality from what I can read but whats COSC and Seal's balance?

oh I ask too many questions..thank you guys very much for your patience and help

[rcarney]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_seal

[DSJ]

A mark of excellence relating more to quality of finishing, coupled with quality of movement. Some more reading:

http://www.timezone.com/library/itsa...74732705524456

http://www.patek.com/patek-philippe....dId=2&lang=en&

[mretzloff]

Do you guys think that the Geneva Seal is a marketing gimic in today's day and age? I read in a magazine a while ago that some collectors regard the Seal the same way many regard the COSC (marketing).

[Tools]

Originally Posted by mretzloff

Do you guys think that the Geneva Seal is a marketing gimic in today's day and age? I read in a magazine a while ago that some collectors regard the Seal the same way many regard the COSC (marketing).

I would say that, of course it is marketing. There is no other reason to attain either of these "certifications".

With COSC though, you can manufacture the watch however you want, so long as it meets the testing parameters, it can be a chronometer

With the Geneva Seal, you need to build the watch to meet the 12 criteria specified. Do this and you can get the "seal", regardless of how the watch performs or how any other part of the watch is built.. It does set a standard...howver, with some of the criteria..such as "it must e finished on one of the accepted finish styles", then it stifles the ability of the manufacturer to do their own work..

[eric23]

Great info. I guess that is why it costs so much for a Patek!

[builtforspeed]

It's my understanding that the Geneva Seal was conceived as much to save the watchmaking industry in Geneva as it was to benefit any single marque. One of the prerequisites to obtaining the Seal is that the watch be manufactured and assembled within the boundaries of the canton of Geneva. If the watches I own that bear the Geneva Seal are any indication, pieces so designated are really nicely made.

Cheers,

Chris

[asadtiger]

thnx a lot guys for the info

[wcl884]

While I believe it is a marketing gimick, many of the watches bearing the Geneva Seal are better quality (albeit sold at a higher price). It is apparently something a watch maker has to submit to evaluation and the Seal as to be "awarded."

Yes, many many watches can get it, but usually only with decent/good craftsmanship.

If you look at Vacheron (a company known for quality pieces), not all of their watches get the Seal, my AD told me because they generally award to "dressier" pieces...don't know what to believe. My Oversea doesn't have it, but the my Patrimony Trad. does. I can't tell the difference in craftsmanship between the two.

[brandrea]

Thread revival

I went to try on some VC watches yesterday and was curious about the Geneva Seal and what it meant. Thanks guys

[padi56]

Originally Posted by mretzloff

Do you guys think that the Geneva Seal is a marketing gimic in today's day and age? I read in a magazine a while ago that some collectors regard the Seal the same way many regard the COSC (marketing).

Yes mainly marketing just like the COSC test as most all modern day movements with careful regulation could pass most all watch test certification.And most all certifications are just to say movement passed test at time of testing.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by mretzloff

Do you guys think that the Geneva Seal is a marketing gimic in today's day and age? I read in a magazine a while ago that some collectors regard the Seal the same way many regard the COSC (marketing).

since T-Bone bumped the thread...



marketing, yes.

However its good IMO to have a 3rd party standard to meet. Otherwise if every brand had their own standard, what does that even mean?

[jvb.nc]

patek doesn’t even care, they have their own seal these days IIRC.

it’s not something i’d obsess over, but it would be cool to see on a VC or roger dubuis movement.

[Onikage]

Isn't COSC where a movement has been tested for accuracy in however many positions at different temperatures? Not just accuracy alone which can be achieved more or less bang on with any standard of movement? Pardon my ignorance.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Onikage

Isn't COSC where a movement has been tested for accuracy in however many positions at different temperatures? Not just accuracy alone which can be achieved more or less bang on with any standard of movement? Pardon my ignorance.

AFAIK. COSC is an accuracy standard. Geneva Seal is more finishing centered and it has to be made in Geneva. The Patek seal focuses on finishing and accuracy. I believe Patek was upset that their watches exceeded the standard or something, so they made their own. A patek seal is +3/-2


yes, COSC has temperatures and position testing i believe.

i found this...The checks performed by the COSC consist of static tests performed in the laboratory. Each individual movement/watch undergoes a battery of tests specific to each of the four types, for several consecutive days, in five positions and at three different temperatures (8°, 23° and 38°C).

[Onikage]

Lol Patek has to go one better with the Patek seal.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Onikage

Lol Patek has to go one better with the Patek seal.

well, on paper, yes

However if you are certifying your own watches then who knows


IMO it would have been better to get the geneva seal to adopt accuracy standards and continue using that

[brandrea]

I just thought it was interesting when looking at VC. One of the very first things the sales associate mentioned was the Geneva Seal movement. I’d never heard the term before so I searched here for information.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by padi56

Yes mainly marketing just like the COSC test as most all modern day movements with careful regulation could pass most all watch test certification. And most all certifications are just to say movement passed test at time of testing.

Kinda agree to disagree to agree. The Seal adds merits to higher quality finishing, and does limit a few things too such as wire springs not being allowed.

Of course as you know... yet as a general overall comment to this thread:

Does a watch need to be 'Geneva Seal' to be accurate, of course not! Accuracy is... and proper regulation of the movement is... you know. The Seal simply overlays some 'rules' to adhere to. Of course a timepiece without the Seal could be more accurate (COSC / daily deviation) than one with a Seal. For example, the Rolex SS SkyD blue here is +/- 7 seconds a month yet the Swiss made mechanical movement does not adhere to the rules of earning a Geneva Seal.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I just thought it was interesting when looking at VC. One of the very first things the sales associate mentioned was the Geneva Seal movement. I’d never heard the term before so I searched here for information.

we have to bump old threads for interesting discussions these days

its kind of true

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

we have to bump old threads for interesting discussions these days

its kind of true

Right?

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

we have to bump old threads for interesting discussions these days

its kind of true

OMG... and agree.

[HAL330]

It's marketing but it's not empty marketing... to earn the seal isn't something a lot of brands can/ or want to do.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

we have to bump old threads for interesting discussions these days

its kind of true

Still true now, the forum has degenerated into "AD relationships" and "investment" threads about present and future values.

As for the Geneva Seal, it's marketing puff, and plenty of great watch brands (e.g. FP Journe) don't bother themselves with it.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

As for the Geneva Seal, it's marketing puff, and plenty of great watch brands (e.g. FP Journe) don't bother themselves with it.

I respectfully disagree.... having a 3rd party government entity insure QC as another layer to your own internal QC is nothing but a win for the consumer and an additional cost for you as a business... marketing? or pride?

Truth be told, the overwhelming majority of Swiss made watch brands would not pass the requirements, even if they relocated their factories to the canton of Geneva

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Tools

I would say that, of course it is marketing. There is no other reason to attain either of these "certifications".

With COSC though, you can manufacture the watch however you want, so long as it meets the testing parameters, it can be a chronometer

With the Geneva Seal, you need to build the watch to meet the 12 criteria specified. Do this and you can get the "seal", regardless of how the watch performs or how any other part of the watch is built.. It does set a standard...howver, with some of the criteria..such as "it must e finished on one of the accepted finish styles", then it stifles the ability of the manufacturer to do their own work..

Have to agree Larry nothing more than marketing.

[HAL330]

Originally Posted by padi56

Have to agree Larry nothing more than marketing.

So... requiring hand finishing case and movements, anglage, black polish, Geneva stripes, perlage and hand engraving are all marketing hype now?

If it's marketing.. is it good marketing then? Effective? And why aren't all the manufactures in Geneva taking advantage of it? No desire to sell more watches?

[George58]

Petek seal vs Geneva Give me an outside agency to over see quality
than in house
no checks or balances

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by HAL330

I respectfully disagree.... having a 3rd party government entity insure QC as another layer to your own internal QC is nothing but a win for the consumer and an additional cost for you as a business... marketing? or pride?

Truth be told, the overwhelming majority of Swiss made watch brands would not pass the requirements, even if they relocated their factories to the canton of Geneva

A few specimen watches are submitted for inspection, fees are paid, then the manufacturers churn out that particular model, complete w/ Geneva Seal without any further inspections taking place. It's a pure marketing exercise.

FPJ are one of the few watch houses who are actually located in the Canton, btw.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by George58

Petek seal vs Geneva Give me an outside agency to over see quality
than in house
no checks or balances

It seems that's what the unqualified Kid at PP wanted, no one to check and balance their efforts. And it's been downhill ever since imho.

In recent years have been saying to 'trust what you see' versus what a company claims (Patek, Panerai, etc).

MB&F, H. Moser, Czapek, Armin Strom, Roger W Smith, and others don't need a 'seal'... use your eyes (and a 10x loop).