Lange Sales/Distribution Change – Pre-Sale Pieces and Application Pieces

[CFR]

Hi All,

Lange is changing some of its sales and distribution practices. I heard rumblings that something was happening about a week ago, but the information I received at that time was a bit confusing and conflicting. To sort this all out, I asked Lange some clarifying questions, and tonight I finally had a chance to sit down and write up what I learned. Hopefully I didn't get too much wrong here! Here's what I learned, presented in FAQ form:


What are the different "points of sale" for Lange watches?

Lange has two types of points of sale: Authorized dealers (ADs) and boutiques. [Note: Boutiques can be subdivided into internal boutiques (owned by Richemont/Lange) and external boutiques (not owned by Richemont/Lange), but that additional distinction isn't relevant here.]


How did Lange sales work in the past?

Almost all standard production Langes, and many limited edition Langes, were available for ADs and boutiques to stock in their inventories. An AD could say to Lange, "I want a Langematik Perpetual for my display case," and Lange would sell that watch to the AD for their display case. You, the client, could then walk into the AD and buy it. If you wanted a Lange that the dealer didn't have in stock, then the dealer could order it from Lange and then sell it to you (or to anyone else, if you didn't want it). Lange never needed to know your name, and no prior purchase history was ever required. Of course, ADs could reserve limited edition or hard-to-get pieces for their preferred customers, but those sorts of decisions were left up to the points of sale.


What IS NOT changing with Lange's new sales practices?

You'll notice no changes for most models within the 1815, Saxonia, Richard Lange, and Lange 1 families. ADs and boutiques will still stock these models and can sell them to anyone who walks in the door.


What IS changing with Lange's new sales practices?

Many of Lange's more costly, complicated models are now "pre-sale" pieces, and some Lange models are "application" pieces.


What are the current pre-sale pieces?

Current pre-sale pieces include all Datograph and Zeitwerk models, the 1815 Chronograph models, the Richard Lange Jumping Seconds models, the Odysseus Datomatic WG/precious metal models, the (now discontinued) Langematik Perpetual models, the Saxonia Thin Copper Blue/Aventurine model (205.086), and all pieces classified as "Novelties" in 2020 and 2021.


What are the current application pieces?

Current application pieces include the stainless steel Odysseus Datomatic (363.179) and all limited edition Langes.


Why is Lange shifting to a "pre-sale" sales model for certain pieces?

Lange is shifting to a pre-sale model to get watches onto the wrists of the clients who want them more quickly and efficiently. Lange's production has always been limited, and currently there exists a global supply shortage for certain higher-end pieces. Until now, a client might want to buy one of these hard-to-find pieces from a point of sale that didn't have it and couldn't readily get it, while at the same time that very same piece might be sitting idle at a different point of sale. That's inefficient, and the pre-sale model substantially reduces that inefficiency.


How can I buy a pre-sale piece?

ADs will no longer stock pre-sale pieces in their inventories, but boutiques may stock pre-sale pieces subject to their availability. When a client wants to buy a pre-sale piece, the AD or boutique will provide Lange with the client's name, and Lange will then (a) link the client, watch, and point of sale together in its database and (b) fill the order by shipping the watch to the point of sale. Delivery time may take up to the usual 6 months if Lange needs to manufacture a watch that doesn't already exist in the pipeline, but otherwise delivery should be faster. Any specific financial arrangements, such as whether the point of sale requires a deposit before placing the order, are determined by the point of sale. Importantly, clients do not need to have a Lange purchase history to buy a pre-sale piece.


What if I want to see a pre-sale piece before I buy it?

Clients would never be required to buy a pre-sale piece that they haven't seen before. One possibility is for Lange to send the AD a dummy/blocked/sample piece to show the client, just like Lange did in the past with new releases. Lange is still figuring that out. If the sellable watch arrives at the point of sale and the client decides not to buy it, then the point of sale may sell it to another client after providing that second client's name to Lange.


How can I buy an application piece?

Application pieces are sold the same way as pre-sale pieces except the client must have a purchase history at one or more points of sale. The minimum purchase history needed for an application piece depends upon the piece. Lange will verify the client's purchase history before delivering the application piece to the point of sale.


Lastly, is it "application pieces" or "allocation pieces"? And while we're at it, is it "deployant" or "deployment"?

DEPLOYANT (folding) buckles are available for almost all APPLICATION pieces. And that's that!

[mockingboy]

Great info - thanks for sharing. What a time

[BigAppleBill]

Interesting stuff. On a related note, it seems people have been saying for years that Lange is on the cusp of making the transition from being heavily discounted on the secondary market to trading at par of retail and even to trading at a premium to retail. I just added a Lange piece so I’ve been monitoring the Lange inventories of certain secondary market dealers for quite some time, and I do get the sense that the transition may be finally happening.

Secondary market inventories and prices definitely have been tightening. I wonder if the catalyst has been the recently released lower production numbers due to the Covid shutdown. Lange produced only 3800 timepieces in 2020, when reportedly their typical annual production is around 5000, which is still quite small especially compared to Patek.

I’d be interested to know what others think.

[chiscott_29]

Excellent summary. Thank you for posting this information

[CFR]

Originally Posted by mockingboy

Great info - thanks for sharing. What a time

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Excellent summary. Thank you for posting this information

Sure, happy to help and glad it's useful/interesting!

[CFR]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBill

Interesting stuff. On a related note, it seems people have been saying for years that Lange is on the cusp of making the transition from being heavily discounted on the secondary market to trading at par of retail and even to trading at a premium to retail. I just added a Lange piece so I’ve been monitoring the Lange inventories of certain secondary market dealers for quite some time, and I do get the sense that the transition may be finally happening.

Secondary market inventories and prices definitely have been tightening. I wonder if the catalyst has been the recently released lower production numbers due to the Covid shutdown. Lange produced only 3800 timepieces in 2020, when reportedly their typical annual production is around 5000, which is still quite small especially compared to Patek.

I’d be interested to know what others think.

Yup, preowned prices for Lange are firming up, but I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the Lange brand or if it is just part of the general trend in pandemic watch price increases. You could actually argue that preowned Lange prices are now lagging even more than before, despite the uptick, when you compare them with (for example) FPJ's uptick. An FPJ Chronometre Bleu now costs more than DOUBLE a rose gold Emil Lange 1815 Moonphase (LE of 250). Two years ago, that same FPJ CB -- which is still being manufactured -- cost less than the Emil. Sacre bleu! Between the Instagram influence and the market-making capabilities of a few big preowned dealers, maybe the Lange preowned market will tighten even furfther.

For reference, preowned, standard-production, now-discontinued models such as original Datographs and Langematik Perpetuals have been slowly creeping up in price after being stagnant for over a decade, and apparently the early Langes with solid casebacks are now collectible too.

[BigAppleBill]

Originally Posted by CFR

Yup, preowned prices for Lange are firming up, but I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the Lange brand or if it is just part of the general trend in pandemic watch price increases. You could actually argue that preowned Lange prices are now lagging even more than before, despite the uptick, when you compare them with (for example) FPJ's uptick. An FPJ Chronometre Bleu now costs more than DOUBLE a rose gold Emil Lange 1815 Moonphase (LE of 250). Two years ago, that same FPJ CB -- which is still being manufactured -- cost less than the Emil. Sacre bleu! Between the Instagram influence and the market-making capabilities of a few big preowned dealers, maybe the Lange preowned market will tighten even furfther.

For reference, preowned, standard-production, now-discontinued models such as original Datographs and Langematik Perpetuals have been slowly creeping up in price after being stagnant for over a decade, and apparently the early Langes with solid casebacks are now collectible too.

I appreciate your observations. With regard to the stratospheric rise of pre-owned Journe pieces, you might recall that it began with only a few select references. The overall rise took a while to broaden. I see a similar thing happening with Lange. The Datograph, Zeitwerk, 1815 Chronograph boutique edition, and some Lange 1 models have recently been on the move. Obviously any steel or honey gold pieces have been way out in front. LE pieces like the one you mentioned may be today’s bargains, but they are likely tomorrow’s auction shockers. Growing worldwide demand paired with relatively low production numbers indicate this is an inevitability. Not a matter of if, but when.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Excellent summary. Thank you for posting this information

+1

[sgwatchguy]

Very useful indeed, Thanks for posting this.

Good to see Lange moves, as I can’t fathom why the market discounts Lange, compared to some other houses... at the same time, anxiety inducing to see this happen now when I have some way to go getting my first Lange and if this results in more upward price movement in the secondary market. Guess we shall see.

[Langepedia]

Many thanks for the summary, my friend.

[edhahn44]

I wonder if this really leads to noticeable differences at end customer level after up and running. In the end, the boutique / AD will take a decision based on supply and demand, which is pretty much how it works everywhere already anyway.

[cascavel]

One of the many reasons I moved from New York City to Santa Fe, NM was to get away from the temptation to visit watch boutiques and ADs and suffer the frustration and humiliation surrounding trying to buy THE watch I wanted and not just another reference which I would be allowed to buy or to buy another brand because the brand I wanted was completely sold out.
And it's worked like a charm. No luxury watch ADs here, if I want something I can look at the TRF listings without my ego being bruised.
Reading this list of Lange Laws momentarily brought back the nausea and sweaty palms I used to experience visiting one of the boutiques on Madison or 57th St., but it's passing.

[Watchflair]

I think it only makes sense that Lange is the next brand to make the jump - limited production, incredible quality, and well respected by collectors. Good info on application pieces - thanks for sharing.

[NYG1121]

Originally Posted by cascavel

One of the many reasons I moved from New York City to Santa Fe, NM was to get away from the temptation to visit watch boutiques and ADs and suffer the frustration and humiliation surrounding trying to buy THE watch I wanted and not just another reference which I would be allowed to buy or to buy another brand because the brand I wanted was completely sold out.
And it's worked like a charm. No luxury watch ADs here, if I want something I can look at the TRF listings without my ego being bruised.
Reading this list of Lange Laws momentarily brought back the nausea and sweaty palms I used to experience visiting one of the boutiques on Madison or 57th St., but it's passing.

Wait you moved because of lack of watch availability in NYC? That is amazing.

[vman]

Glad I bought my Lange at an AD ;-)

[WatchEater666]

Wow, hopefully they still have models available at every boutique to check out. There's no way I would have bought a Zeitwerk without seeing it in-person first. Vanilla model was much more wearable than I thought and way cooler than videos made me think.

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by NYG1121

Wait you moved because of lack of watch availability in NYC? That is amazing.

Yep. Had to remove myself from this constant source of flagellation. The punishment meted out by the wrist watch establishment in NYC was too much for me, I was never adequate. In Santa Fe, if you're wearing a Submariner, even an old, undistinguished one, like a 16610, you rule.

[chiscott_29]

Originally Posted by cascavel

Yep. Had to remove myself from this constant source of flagellation. The punishment meted out by the wrist watch establishment in NYC was too much for me, I was never adequate. In Santa Fe, if you're wearing a Submariner, even an old, undistinguished one, like a 16610, you rule.

So, I find this amazing and I completely APPLAUD you. My first reaction was "wow, that's weird"...but it genuinely makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

It's not the same thing per se, but the current "game" is exhausting. IT IS A WATCH...Yet we treat them as if they are something much more to validate our worth. I'm guilty of those feelings as well.

I have to say, it's getting really tiring and I've been thinking more and more about checking out and just being satisfied with what I have.

[vman]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

So, I find this amazing and I completely APPLAUD you. My first reaction was "wow, that's weird"...but it genuinely makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

It's not the same thing per se, but the current "game" is exhausting. IT IS A WATCH...Yet we treat them as if they are something much more to validate our worth. I'm guilty of those feelings as well.

I have to say, it's getting really tiring and I've been thinking more and more about checking out and just being satisfied with what I have.

Santa Fe rocks. It is on my potential "final move" places. Absolutely love NM.

I am pretty much content with what I have. Sold off all popular models and have not been better. Can wear my vintage pieces anywhere w/o losing an arm.

[baamvino]

This is great. Than you for the info.
How much do you have to spend in order to buy an application piece?

[texasmade]

So currently the only non LE application piece is the SS Odysseus?

[RollinMoses]

Thanks a lot, very interesting.

I am reading correctly that application pieces including the SS Odysseus can now be “applied for” ADs and not just the boutiques?

The last time I enquired at the boutique (a year ago or more), SS Odysseus was only available to be “applied for” by those with boutique purchase history and my previous purchase from an AD did not count for anything.

Thanks again,
Mo

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by vman

Santa Fe rocks. It is on my potential "final move" places. Absolutely love NM.

I am pretty much content with what I have. Sold off all popular models and have not been better. Can wear my vintage pieces anywhere w/o losing an arm.

Funny thing, my other choice for a "final move" was Asheville but my girlfriend decided it wasn't far enough away from her family, who all live in New York.
We haven't regretted moving to Santa Fe for one moment.

[loftycomfort]

I was puzzled by why the market price of my Saxonia copper blue suddenly spiked 20% in a week on Chrono24. Now I know why: it’s been called out as a “pre-sale” watch. I can’t say I’m unhappy about that. :)

Overall, this is a good move by Lange. I think it’ll eliminate a lot of the consumer frustration by making Lange itself as the entity who manages wait lists.

[GB-man]

Great post thx

[Justindo]

Excellent post! Considering Lange's production capacity, this is not really surprising. Even at full list price, all Langes are a bargain, in my opinion.

[CFR]

Originally Posted by baamvino

This is great. Than you for the info.
How much do you have to spend in order to buy an application piece?

I believe it depends upon the piece. I had asked this question a while ago, but not recently, about the stainless steel Datomatic. I don't remember the specific answer, but I recall that buying one uncomplicated Saxonia or 1815 wasn't quite sufficient. You needed a bit more than that, like maybe at least something at the Lange 1 price point, but I could be misremembering.

Originally Posted by texasmade

So currently the only non LE application piece is the SS Odysseus?

That's what I was told, though I didn't ask about the much more costly pieces like (for example) a ZW Minute Repeater.

Originally Posted by RollinMoses

Thanks a lot, very interesting.

I am reading correctly that application pieces including the SS Odysseus can now be “applied for” ADs and not just the boutiques?

The last time I enquired at the boutique (a year ago or more), SS Odysseus was only available to be “applied for” by those with boutique purchase history and my previous purchase from an AD did not count for anything.

Thanks again,
Mo

The steel Datomatic was never supposed to be a boutique-only piece. Boutiques were getting all the initial deliveries, and ADs were supposed to start getting deliveries several months later. But then the pandemic came, production slowed, and things changed. To the best of my knowledge, ADs still haven't received any steel Odysseus pieces. So I'd imagine you could apply for a steel Odysseus at an AD if the AD would entertain that request, but who knows when you'd get it, even if you had a solid purchase history there? Deliveries just aren't yet being made, unless that recently changed. Similarly, I don't know the average current waiting time for a steel Datomatic at a boutique. Even though boutiques (vs. ADs) are actually getting these pieces, I think boutiques are still getting very few of them.

[fullofboats]

The boutique wait time for the steel Odysseus at the end of last year was ~12 months. I’ve been told very recently that it is now 18-24 month. I think the minimum purchase requirement was a Lange 1 and that the more you spend the higher on the list you are placed. Once you apply and are approved by ALS HQ you get an email stating you are on the “request list”

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

So, I find this amazing and I completely APPLAUD you. My first reaction was "wow, that's weird"...but it genuinely makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

It's not the same thing per se, but the current "game" is exhausting. IT IS A WATCH...Yet we treat them as if they are something much more to validate our worth. I'm guilty of those feelings as well.

I have to say, it's getting really tiring and I've been thinking more and more about checking out and just being satisfied with what I have.

Wrist watches have been fetishized to the point where, as you say, they become something to validate our worth. This post explaining Lange's methodology for determining who may receive what watch replicates medieval religious blessings: tithe enough and you may gain entry to heaven. The poor need not apply.
The irritating part is that Lange is a nouveau at this, based entirely upon their recent entry into the stainless market with the Odysseus. Before that Lange was simply a maker of superb timepieces available on a first come first served basis to anyone whose credit card could hold the weight. Now we need a post like this to begin to understand the theology behind the allocation process. At least Rolex has the decency not to explain very much and pretend it's democratic. And Patek is like an ancient monarchy which makes it more tolerable.

[raclaims]

Great info...I'm hoping that people have finally recognized the brand and how amazing it is thanks to shortages elsewhere...a lot of times there is reflex action on a big purchase so one just sticks with what they know...I'm really hopeful that many of the "other" brands will continue to be seen for what they are now.

Honestly it's hard for me to even consider a Patek over a Lange now.

I'm much more likely to buy an Omega than a Rolex

I'm buying as many VC as I can

It's been fun! I hope many others are seeing the same and it creates greater pieces for us all to enjoy