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Old 13 March 2021, 04:53 AM   #31
lord91
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The application thing sucks! No possibility for watch lovers to buy just what they want.

Lange jumping on the hype brainstorming train is

and one of the most hideous watches in the history of mankind, the Odysseus, being an application piece says it all.
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Old 13 March 2021, 05:03 AM   #32
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The application thing sucks! No possibility for watch lovers to buy just what they want.

Lange jumping on the hype brainstorming train is

and one of the most hideous watches in the history of mankind, the Odysseus, being an application piece says it all.
I think it seems overall a good strategy by Lange but then I love the Odysseus
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Old 13 March 2021, 05:05 AM   #33
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The Odysseus is gorgeous...love mine...but there's a girl for every guy so to speak!
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Old 13 March 2021, 05:54 AM   #34
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I think the Odysseus will become the new king among high end sport watches once more people have seen it in person. ALS has really thrown down the gauntlet vs the RO and nautilus IMO.
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Old 13 March 2021, 10:25 AM   #35
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and their prices are going up next week
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Old 13 March 2021, 08:32 PM   #36
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The Odysseus is wonderful, but I’m not a huge fan of the idea of application pieces for regular production, though with LEs there is validity I suppose.

Having to prove oneself worthy leaves a bad taste.

Lange will have to tread carefully as it can sour the relationship with customers. Good will is hard to build and easy to squander.
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Old 14 March 2021, 01:33 AM   #37
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I am totally fine with the concept of application pieces. It seems better to me than the games from Patek/Rolex/AP with fake wait lists and mysterious allocation processes and in many cases not knowing what’s possible and what’s really not.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’ll gladly wait for something I want if I know a realistic timeframe and I’m being communicated with as a valued customer. I also would appreciate being told “no” if something isn’t going to happen. It seems to me ALS may be simply bringing some transparency to the process.

I genuinely see nothing bad coming out of this. It gives them better control over pricing. Which should firm up secondary market value. And, it seems to me the process is transparent.
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Old 14 March 2021, 03:19 AM   #38
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I am totally fine with the concept of application pieces. It seems better to me than the games from Patek/Rolex/AP with fake wait lists and mysterious allocation processes and in many cases not knowing what’s possible and what’s really not.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’ll gladly wait for something I want if I know a realistic timeframe and I’m being communicated with as a valued customer. I also would appreciate being told “no” if something isn’t going to happen. It seems to me ALS may be simply bringing some transparency to the process.

I genuinely see nothing bad coming out of this. It gives them better control over pricing. Which should firm up secondary market value. And, it seems to me the process is transparent.
It'll be interesting to see how Lange handles sales/distribution/longevity of the steel Datomatic in the future.

At some point, demand for the stainless steel Datomatic from customers with prior Lange purchase histories will be entirely satisfied. There will be no real waiting lists. What happens then? I see three possibilities:

(1) Continue to offer this as an "application piece" despite the greatly reduced demand

(2) Eliminate the "application piece" status and sell this as a "no prior purchase required" piece (i.e., either an in-stock piece or a pre-sale piece)

(3) Discontinue the model (to communicate its "exclusivity" -- which doesn't really need to be in quotes, in that case, because it would be exclusive)

If I were Lange, I'd discontinue this watch (and any future non-numbered application pieces) as soon as demand from good, prior customers is satisfied.

From a brand's perspective, the problem with numbered limited editions (LEs) is that the brand can't accurately predict how supply will meet demand. If Lange makes 218 Richard Lange Pour le Merite watches in white gold, they don't know in advance if all those watches will sell out quickly or slowly, and it looks bad for the brand if the last 50 of those pieces languish unsold.

Producing a non-numbered "application piece" in an open-ended manner that the brand intentionally discontinues as soon as demand from past loyal customers is satisfied solves for that problem. I think that's the smartest strategy. And of course, it's not like this strategy would apply to ALL Lange models. It would apply only to very few.
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Old 14 March 2021, 03:43 AM   #39
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I am totally fine with the concept of application pieces. It seems better to me than the games from Patek/Rolex/AP with fake wait lists and mysterious allocation processes and in many cases not knowing what’s possible and what’s really not.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’ll gladly wait for something I want if I know a realistic timeframe and I’m being communicated with as a valued customer. I also would appreciate being told “no” if something isn’t going to happen. It seems to me ALS may be simply bringing some transparency to the process.

I genuinely see nothing bad coming out of this. It gives them better control over pricing. Which should firm up secondary market value. And, it seems to me the process is transparent.
My only drawback I have is if I’m at the boutique and see that they have an 1815 Chrono in stock not already allocated. If I’m ready to buy right then and there, are they going to say sorry apply first to see if you qualify? I can understand if it’s not in stock and a watch needs to be made or the one in stock is already allocated but if it’s right there in the store unallocated making a customer apply first and then sending them away would be kind of dumb.
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Old 14 March 2021, 03:52 AM   #40
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At some point, demand for the stainless steel Datomatic from customers with prior Lange purchase histories will be entirely satisfied. There will be no real waiting lists. What happens then? I see three possibilities:
I don't think all the demand for the Odysseus is coming from existing customers. Over retail hyped pieces have a virtuous cycle of the higher the price over retail the more new demand there actually is. If anything, I think it's mostly from new customers coming in creating new demand which is why the resale price is 2.5x retail and why the market price of other ALS pieces are moving up.

I'm such a customer. I bought my first ALS from the boutique instead of going through an AD or preowned to be put on the Odysseus request list. And from what I'm told the waitlist has gotten longer recently - it's now 18-24months.

I've never played the waitlist games with PP/AP/Rolex before because the entire waitlist was just whatever the SA or boutique manager felt like. At least with ALS HQ actually approves who gets on the waitlist, they give you a rough timeframe, and you get a confirmation email.
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Old 14 March 2021, 03:59 AM   #41
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My only drawback I have is if I’m at the boutique and see that they have an 1815 Chrono in stock not already allocated. If I’m ready to buy right then and there, are they going to say sorry apply first to see if you qualify? I can understand if it’s not in stock and a watch needs to be made or the one in stock is already allocated but if it’s right there in the store unallocated making a customer apply first and then sending them away would be kind of dumb.
According to the info I received and posted here, the 1815 Chrono is not an application piece. Anyone can buy it. The only current application pieces are the steel Odysseus Datomatic and limited edition pieces.
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Old 14 March 2021, 04:01 AM   #42
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I don't think all the demand for the Odysseus is coming from existing customers. Over retail hyped pieces have a virtuous cycle of the higher the price over retail the more new demand there actually is. If anything, I think it's mostly from new customers coming in creating new demand which is why the resale price is 2.5x retail and why the market price of other ALS pieces are moving up.

I'm such a customer. I bought my first ALS from the boutique instead of going through an AD or preowned to be put on the Odysseus request list. And from what I'm told the waitlist has gotten longer recently - it's now 18-24months.

I've never played the waitlist games with PP/AP/Rolex before because the entire waitlist was just whatever the SA or boutique manager felt like. At least with ALS HQ actually approves who gets on the waitlist, they give you a rough timeframe, and you get a confirmation email.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you. I think much of the current demand for the steel Datomatic is coming from those who are new to the brand. To clarify, you'd definitely fall into the category of "existing customer" as I see it.

I'm curious, do you think you'll keep that first Lange piece? Or are you likely to sell it once you get the steel Datomatic?

Also, more generally, I appreciate your thoughtful posts.
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Old 14 March 2021, 04:24 AM   #43
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Thank you for sharing this info.
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Old 14 March 2021, 04:40 AM   #44
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Lange Sales/Distribution Change – Pre-Sale Pieces and Application Pieces

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If I were Lange, I'd discontinue this watch (and any future non-numbered application pieces) as soon as demand from good, prior customers is satisfied.

Producing a non-numbered "application piece" in an open-ended manner that the brand intentionally discontinues as soon as demand from past loyal customers is satisfied solves for that problem. I think that's the smartest strategy. And of course, it's not like this strategy would apply to ALL Lange models. It would apply only to very few.
Totally agree with you. And making it an “application piece” will allow them to do exactly this.

I would fully support this type of practice as long as it is indeed limited to only very select models. As of now, there is only one application piece and that’s the SS Odysseus. So I’d say they’re starting in the right place.

EDIT: Limited Numbers are also application pieces, my bad.

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Old 14 March 2021, 04:53 AM   #45
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According to the info I received and posted here, the 1815 Chrono is not an application piece. Anyone can buy it. The only current application pieces are the steel Odysseus Datomatic and limited edition pieces.

I verified this with my AD who I trust fully. The only non-limited application piece is the SS Odysseus. All numbered editions fall into this group as well, but I don’t know how many of those are still in production or how many current models are limited numbers. I just assume I can’t afford limited edition Langes.

Everything else over $50k and non-limited you may (or may not) have to wait for depending on supply/demand. It seems that wait is capped at 6 months, but I don’t know that. I’d assume if the AD has an 1815/Datograph/Zeitwerk on display, it’s for sale and there is no wait. Or, at least I hope that is how it works out...


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Old 14 March 2021, 05:01 AM   #46
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According to the info I received and posted here, the 1815 Chrono is not an application piece. Anyone can buy it. The only current application pieces are the steel Odysseus Datomatic and limited edition pieces.
I’m referring to a presale piece. If it’s readily available in the boutique will a customer still need to jump through hoops to get it or is the presale process only if it’s not at the boutique or AD at the time?
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Old 14 March 2021, 05:26 AM   #47
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I also wonder whether this will have an impact on secondary market. As stated previously, I see prices for the sought after pieces appreciating quite quickly. However, you can still get a Lange 1 Darth below retail of the current line, which is hard to understand.


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Old 14 March 2021, 05:27 AM   #48
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According to the info I received and posted here, the 1815 Chrono is not an application piece. Anyone can buy it. The only current application pieces are the steel Odysseus Datomatic and limited edition pieces.
Thanks for sharing the information. I thought the line was drawn between 50K and above. I think everyone knew and assumed Odysseus and LE are application only pieces, why bother with this change announcement? Doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 14 March 2021, 06:22 AM   #49
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It'll be interesting to see how Lange handles sales/distribution/longevity of the steel Datomatic in the future.

At some point, demand for the stainless steel Datomatic from customers with prior Lange purchase histories will be entirely satisfied. There will be no real waiting lists. What happens then? I see three possibilities:

(1) Continue to offer this as an "application piece" despite the greatly reduced demand

(2) Eliminate the "application piece" status and sell this as a "no prior purchase required" piece (i.e., either an in-stock piece or a pre-sale piece)

(3) Discontinue the model (to communicate its "exclusivity" -- which doesn't really need to be in quotes, in that case, because it would be exclusive)

If I were Lange, I'd discontinue this watch (and any future non-numbered application pieces) as soon as demand from good, prior customers is satisfied.

From a brand's perspective, the problem with numbered limited editions (LEs) is that the brand can't accurately predict how supply will meet demand. If Lange makes 218 Richard Lange Pour le Merite watches in white gold, they don't know in advance if all those watches will sell out quickly or slowly, and it looks bad for the brand if the last 50 of those pieces languish unsold.

Producing a non-numbered "application piece" in an open-ended manner that the brand intentionally discontinues as soon as demand from past loyal customers is satisfied solves for that problem. I think that's the smartest strategy. And of course, it's not like this strategy would apply to ALL Lange models. It would apply only to very few.

CFR, this is a pretty interesting model. In theory would work.

For the application pieces...I want to understand the nuance of the collector acquired their pieces preowned or must have a purchase history and purchased new whether it was Ad at discount or boutique at msrp.


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Old 14 March 2021, 07:06 AM   #50
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Yes, I absolutely agree with you. I think much of the current demand for the steel Datomatic is coming from those who are new to the brand. To clarify, you'd definitely fall into the category of "existing customer" as I see it.

I'm curious, do you think you'll keep that first Lange piece? Or are you likely to sell it once you get the steel Datomatic?

Also, more generally, I appreciate your thoughtful posts.
Definitely keeping the 414.028. In fact I added a preowned 101.032 recently as I've gotten bit by the ALS bug. The Odysseus would just be a cherry on top.

My story is I decided I was going to get a 1815 chronograph so walked into a boutique to see which reference I liked most with the intention of later buying through a grey as the retail price then was about $10k above market. I had no clue about the Odysseus other than the internet thought it was ugly. After the boutique showed me a display Odysseus, which completely won me over, and explained how the waitlist with ALS worked I agreed to buy a 414.028 from them and apply for the waitlist. It's a waiting game for me now and I hope to get mine by the end of the year.
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Old 14 March 2021, 08:52 AM   #51
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I heard all chronograph movements will be application pieces

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According to the info I received and posted here, the 1815 Chrono is not an application piece. Anyone can buy it. The only current application pieces are the steel Odysseus Datomatic and limited edition pieces.
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Old 14 March 2021, 09:41 AM   #52
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I also wonder whether this will have an impact on secondary market. As stated previously, I see prices for the sought after pieces appreciating quite quickly. However, you can still get a Lange 1 Darth below retail of the current line, which is hard to understand.


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Which tells you that the Lange 1, in general, has a limited following, as do most Lange models. Once the fever for the SS Odysseus dies down and the "bundling" stops, Lange will fall to earth.
I wonder if Lange won't find themselves in the position of having to have a SS watch in production at all times in order to maintain sales of their PM models? Not that that's a problem.
And if the wait time for the Odysseus is 2 years, how many people will be willing to spend $50K now in order to get on the list for their payday in 2023?
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Old 14 March 2021, 11:52 AM   #53
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Thanks for sharing the information. I thought the line was drawn between 50K and above. I think everyone knew and assumed Odysseus and LE are application only pieces, why bother with this change announcement? Doesn't make sense to me.
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I heard all chronograph movements will be application pieces
The person I spoke with at Lange USA told me differently. But anyone can easily find out. The changes are supposed to go into effect on Monday 3/15, so you can find out on Tuesday if pieces "$50K and above" and "all chronos" are now application pieces. You can ask any boutique or AD if you must have a prior purchase history to buy, say, (a) a 191.025 (Lange 1 in platinum, retail $53K) and (b) a 414.032 (1815 Chrono in rose gold, retail $60K). My understanding is that you can still buy either of these pieces without any prior purchase history, though for the 414.032 (a pre-sale piece), Lange will take down your name and will order it for you since ADs will no longer stock these (unless they happen to still have one from before). But you shouldn't need to "apply" for either piece -- there's no real "approval" or "worthiness test" that happens other than making sure you haven't placed multiple orders with multiple Lange dealers for the same watch.

Re "Why bother with the change announcement?" Lange didn't formally announce anything, as far as I know. There's no official statement that I've seen. I think it's just a few collectors (like me) who heard rumblings, then talked with their contacts in the Lange world (Lange corporate staff, ADs, boutiques, etc.) to get additional info, and then informed the community on forums like this and on social media. I think the most visible change, based upon what I was told, will be the absence of pre-sale pieces (Zeitwerks, Datos, 1815 Chronos, etc.) from ADs' display cases. I'm not seeing any major changes other than that, unless I'm missing something.

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CFR, this is a pretty interesting model. In theory would work.

For the application pieces...I want to understand the nuance of the collector acquired their pieces preowned or must have a purchase history and purchased new whether it was Ad at discount or boutique at msrp.
I don't think we know this yet. But it wouldn't surprise me (and it seems like good business sense) that first priority for an application piece would go to good clients of that point of sale -- so if you bought $80,000 worth of Langes from the Gotham City boutique in the past, that boutique might prioritize you over the guy who bought $300,000 worth of Langes preowned but hasn't yet spent a cent at the Gotham City boutique. Also, if a person owns a Lange with papers from a former point of sale (say, one of the many ADs that Lange has closed over the years), then we're in murky territory because that person can say, "I bought it new from that former AD back in 2005" even if they actually bought it preowned or gray. It'd be impossible for you to prove (unless you had the original purchase receipt from that AD) or for Lange to disprove.

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Definitely keeping the 414.028. In fact I added a preowned 101.032 recently as I've gotten bit by the ALS bug. The Odysseus would just be a cherry on top.

My story is I decided I was going to get a 1815 chronograph so walked into a boutique to see which reference I liked most with the intention of later buying through a grey as the retail price then was about $10k above market. I had no clue about the Odysseus other than the internet thought it was ugly. After the boutique showed me a display Odysseus, which completely won me over, and explained how the waitlist with ALS worked I agreed to buy a 414.028 from them and apply for the waitlist. It's a waiting game for me now and I hope to get mine by the end of the year.
Thanks for sharing this. Is that an Eichi II on the right?! A local friend owns one and I've had the pleasure of seeing it several times.
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Old 14 March 2021, 08:22 PM   #54
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Will AD still provide discount on regular in-line models such as Lange1 and 1815 updown?
As long as they’re continuing to give 20-25% from MSRP, the seconday market will remain the same.
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Old 14 March 2021, 11:54 PM   #55
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I just purchased the new timezone 1 and will receive it this week. I currently own a Datograph up/down, perpetual rattrapante in platinum, Double split in platinum.
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Old 16 March 2021, 03:34 AM   #56
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Will AD still provide discount on regular in-line models such as Lange1 and 1815 updown?
As long as they’re continuing to give 20-25% from MSRP, the seconday market will remain the same.
I thought that level of discounting was in the past, maybe 10 to 15% now? For the presale pieces, I doubt they will be able to discount as much as they now need to be ordered.
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Old 16 March 2021, 05:55 AM   #57
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I thought that level of discounting was in the past, maybe 10 to 15% now? For the presale pieces, I doubt they will be able to discount as much as they now need to be ordered.
This is exactly how I see it.

I would love to hear from a customer trying to operate in this new model, but my expectation is there won't be any discount on the Dato, Zeitwerk, or 1815 Chronograph (or any other presale pieces). Since Lange is going to know now exactly where the demand is, they could simply route everything to the boutiques which have been trying to get rid of discounting now for the past couple of years.
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Old 24 March 2021, 05:12 AM   #58
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I also wonder whether this will have an impact on secondary market. As stated previously, I see prices for the sought after pieces appreciating quite quickly. However, you can still get a Lange 1 Darth below retail of the current line, which is hard to understand.

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A Darth in very modest condition with no papers just sold for 47.5 at christies, so seems to be having an impact already..
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Old 24 March 2021, 09:12 AM   #59
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I just purchased the new timezone 1 and will receive it this week. I currently own a Datograph up/down, perpetual rattrapante in platinum, Double split in platinum.


From an AD or a Boutique?
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Old 24 March 2021, 05:53 PM   #60
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A Darth in very modest condition with no papers just sold for 47.5 at christies, so seems to be having an impact already..
Well, and this even excludes 25% buyer's premium if I'm not mistaken.
Seems also like the secondary market is completely dried out or asking crazy prices for Datos, Chronos and hot Lange 1s (a 101.001 is offered for € 80k for example).

Still not sure if all those pieces landed at serious collectors or if it's just a game of the larger greys to pumping up prices....
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