What differentiates the current state of Rolex vs. Panerai's from 5-7 years ago?

[oldman2005]

I doubt that it has anything to do with LE or too many since I have seen very few Panerai on people wrist. It was a fad at the time and many move on just like difference cloth styles.

Omega is hot and check out their many LE's of the Speedmater, the last 50th Anv Apollo11 speedmaster sold like hot cakes, their Tuesday LE sold out less than 1 hour,..

[904VT]

Mainstream Panerai demand was fad driven, while current Rolex demand is a function of both the position we are in the economic cycle and the structural increase in Asian market demand. Economic cycle demand will slow with the economy and it's anyone's guess how long the Asian market will continue to grow. Rolex really is just Rolex and unique jewelry/watches. For better or worse many have always looked at Rolex as currency substitutes, especially in markets that were less steady prior to all the joint currency and pegging. Today in the developed markets with strong currencies Rolex are looked at by savers as an "investment". We may not like and I do disagree with this approach, but it only has happened with Rolex. Whether as an insurance policy/trading item on your wrist in a far off place or in the safe as a hard asset, it doesn't happen with any other brands regularly and so broadly. Patek is too niche imo to have broad market influence in this respect (which is off course different than a design and technical influence).

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I appreciate both brands for what they are and don't really think you can draw a straight line comparison.

In all honesty of the pieces I own, this one makes me smile the most every time I strap it on.

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High (but well deserved) praise considering your collection!

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by sinkholeninja

I was a big Panerai fan before I moved over to Rolex and still love their design aesthetic. Their downfall however is entirely of their own doing. Sure, big watches aren't as popular as they used to be, but that's not the main reason why the brand is having a hard time. Cutting corners in so many ways is what has caused fans to drop them. One only has to look at Luminor Due - a 30m (!!!) water resistant, snap-on back, spring bars having sacrilege of a watch, to understand how out-of-touch Panerai really is. A diver watch that went from 300m water resistance to 100m to 30m is a joke.

Panerai are cutting costs and introducing sh*t quality pieces that are ruining their appeal and neglecting their great history as one of the quintessential dive watch brands. In the process they lost trust of their customers, who they are clearly taking for fools, and that trust can not be repaired.

I’d guess that fewer people dive with a Panerai than the small % of Rolex owners that do. As far as quality, I’ve read nothing that says Panerai quality has decreased.

[Cru Jones]

In the 2000s, Panerai was a different world. They had very limited production, a wealth of prior models from which to derive inspiration, and a definite cache. Then came over-production and over-exposure, as well as a few questionable management choices. Then more over-production and taking out content from the lower end pieces.

Certain hard core fans remain as well as the basic goodness of the watch.

I’ve really enjoyed my Panerai for the 8 years I’ve had it. Also, the non-OEM strap culture is a lot of fun. If funds permitted, I would consider others.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

High (but well deserved) praise considering your collection!

Thank you my friend, but you are primarily responsible

[Fleetlord]

Panerai made classic luxury goods marketing mistakes, even before the "scandal"...

1) Overproduction. Panerai released too many overall references and produced too many of each one. This was in stark contrast to foundation of their growth, which was perceived exclusivity and limited distribution. They opened alotta boutiques and AD doors and just had to fill them with product...lol

2) Raise prices. Besides perceived exclusivity, luxury consumers demand value retention. This is conveyed to the general public by the delta between retail and secondary market pricing. When a company overproduces AND raises retail, the secondary market valuation won't keep pace (and certainly won't exceed) due to the over supply flooding the market. It makes the brand look soft, weak and undesirable.

So...the lesson here is that in the luxury market, raising prices and overproduction is a toxic stew that luxury consumers won't eat...let alone even order...combine this with the recession, the movement scandal and the mis-handling of their LE's...and the brand is in the state it is in now..

As for Rolex? They haven't make any of these mistakes. Only economic upheaval can stop them now. Their dominance of the luxury watch space is almost absolute at this point. Sure Patek, AP and RM are in the game, but overall...It's Rolex that rules and will continue to.

[Mystro]

3 decade of Rolex ownership and I’ll be brutally honest with my own reality check.
I would say Rolex is making their own mistakes in different ways and they could be far worse for the owner.
I could care less how “desirable” a watch is as that isn’t my motive as a enthusiast to buy so take that away from Rolex and what are we left with??? A wildly overpriced factory watch that can’t be purchased or even handled at a Rolex authorized dealer.
Availability or (lack of) is tolerated for a short period of time but once it goes beyond a short time frame the lack of inventory will push away the enthusiast and the affluent customer that just wants a nice watch to wear. The AD’s have even taken a piece of your integrity suggesting you need to purchase 2 watches you don’t want for the chance to buy one that you do want at full msrp.

So now the Rolex market is left with commodity watch flippers trying to make a quick score at the expense of those that buy watches to wear. The new buyers main talking points when it comes to Rolex is only how hard the watch is to get or how much over msrp the watch is selling for. They are not watch enthusiast nor does it reflect on the product itself. The only one happily pulling the strings is Rolex. The customer now has no power with any aspect of their watch from purchasing to servicing. The Rolex dictatorship has made me very uncomfortable for years as a owner.

When Rolex decides to make other radical changes like possibly swapping out movements instead of servicing them at service centers the owner will be left with no recourse.
Rolex freely admits it has no responsibility to carry parts for discontinued movements so forget about handing down that 50 year old Rolex to a family member. Only a decade back, the independent watchmakers had access to parts to keep these old beautiful Rolex watches up and running indefinitely. Those days are gone.
There are a lot of other wonderful watch brands out their you can actually purchase that admittedly not so heavily controlled so you have to accept the advantages and disadvantages that goes along with it.

If/when the house of Rolex cards falls, it will be monumentally horrific as too much of Rolex are artificially controlled unlike other manufactures where the free market has more of a hand in their future. Rolex feels too much like the housing market a decade back in its artificial value and desirability.
As a owner, I am much more concerned with being caught in a servicing dilemma down the road.

[Brian Page]

Originally Posted by Mystro

I am on the flip side. I won’t play the Rolex game of watches you can’t find or buy so my money is going to Panerai. I also own all the Rolex watches I will ever need.
Rolex watches and Panerai watches have their own design and look. Neither will be confused with anything else. Panerai will always be the ultimate strap watch to me.
I love the Panerai brand and their top tier lines with new materials like Carbotech are on fire and their new in-house 9010 movement is outstanding.
Panerai enthusiast are still alive and very strong. The commodity watch brokers have left the brand and have focused on Rolex.

The Panerai Carbotech is the toughest and most comfortable automatic watch I have ever owned by a large margin.

Love this watch mystro

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[drtii]

Originally Posted by dmash

You can’t seriously be on this ‘big watches are going out of style’ train. Really? That’s why Rolex, one of the most conservative brands there is, has the 44mm Yachtmaster II, 43mm Sea Dweller, 42mm Sky Dweller, 42mm ExplorerII and 44mm DeepSea. 42-44mm (the exact size you’re using as a comparison with Panerai) is not ever going to ‘be on its way out’. It’s here to stay. Fact. And I don’t even like stuff 43-44mm, I can just admit the reality.

Agreed.

You can't just blanket statement that it's too big and no one wants or buys big watches, that has nothing to do with it. There are much larger watches people buy and 44mm is not exactly massive, nor is 42mm.

From my point of view Panerai just didn't have staying power, it had a "fad demand" for a number of years. When that demand died down it wasn't replaced with new aspiring owners.

Panerai's have a very specific demographic. They're very basic, masculine watches. That doesn't appeal to everyone, the same way iced out bezels don't appeal to everyone.

I believe PAM's can make a comeback only if/when pop culture promotes it again. Right now Rolex, Patek and AP are the ones in the limelight and without that push the younger generations won't aspire to own one.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by Brian Page

Love this watch mystro

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Thanks. It’s literally a game changer in my collection. I think the thinness of the cal.9010 and Carbotech material give it perfect large watch proportions yet light weight with unscratchabiliy.
I have had it on 6 dives already. I banged it off a bridge pier 15’ underwater and not a mark. It looks brand new still. All the advantages of ceramic with the strength of steel.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by drtii

Agreed.

You can't just blanket statement that it's too big and no one wants or buys big watches, that has nothing to do with it. There are much larger watches people buy and 44mm is not exactly massive, nor is 42mm.

From my point of view Panerai just didn't have staying power, it had a "fad demand" for a number of years. When that demand died down it wasn't replaced with new aspiring owners.

Panerai's have a very specific demographic. They're very basic, masculine watches. That doesn't appeal to everyone, the same way iced out bezels don't appeal to everyone.

I believe PAM's can make a comeback only if/when pop culture promotes it again. Right now Rolex, Patek and AP are the ones in the limelight and without that push the younger generations won't aspire to own one.

It’s a buyers market for AP now. They are down a bit and that’s not a bad thing for enthusiast.

[Brian Page]

Originally Posted by Mystro

Thanks. It’s literally a game changer in my collection. I think the thinness of the cal.9010 and Carbotech material give it perfect large watch proportions yet light weight with unscratchabiliy.
I have had it on 6 dives already. I banged it off a bridge pier 15’ underwater and not a mark. It looks brand new still. All the advantages of ceramic with the strength of steel.

I've had numerous Panerai and am currently without one, and still have an army of custom 24mm straps... I may have to look into this model. Glad to hear that you actually dive with it :)

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[Vince KSA]

I love Rolex and it will always be the backbone of my collection, as the brand just stands the test of time,.. time and time again.

However I also love my Pan on the right occasion.


Suited and booted.jpg

[calh22a]

Originally Posted by Mystro

It’s a buyers market for AP now. They are down a bit and that’s not a bad thing for enthusiast.

I would have to disagree with AP being in a buyers market now. Their most popular piece, the RO, is still hard to acquire at this time and still sells for more on the grey market compared to retail.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by Brian Page

I've had numerous Panerai and am currently without one, and still have an army of custom 24mm straps... I may have to look into this model. Glad to hear that you actually dive with it :)

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Do it. The construction and fit/finish is perfection. Feels to be made out of a lightweight stone material. Very unique. It punches way above its msrp IMO.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by calh22a

I would have to disagree with AP being in a buyers market now. Their most popular piece, the RO, is still hard to acquire at this time and still sells for more on the grey market compared to retail.

The ROOC is very obtainable at a nice price at many of our trusted sellers. There are a few Havana and Elephant models for sale now that if they go any lower I am gonna pop for one. No way am I buying a above msrp Rolex at $18k when I can buy a like new AP ROOC. I really want a Forged Carbon but they are still too salty. I am not a one brand centric enthusiast so AP is a great choice.

[05carbondrz]

Everybody knows what a Rolex is,Nobody knows what a Panerai is....End Thread.

[aperna]

The last time I checked, Panerai was doing just fine in world sales.

[drtii]

Originally Posted by Mystro

It’s a buyers market for AP now. They are down a bit and that’s not a bad thing for enthusiast.

I like to hear that!

[TswaneNguni]

Have a few rollies ...batman,subCdate,SkyD black ,SD50th and others ,but the standouts in my collection are ...

...Panerai :

PAM 671 Blue Bronzo
PAM 341 The Egyptian

Always,always looking for the Fiddy to come my way ....

Visited the original site of Panerai in Firenze (Piazza San Giovanni ) in 2017 ... one of those "have to do things in life" for me .

[easterbunny]

i'm kinda glad the pam bubble popped. i just bought one with a decent discount and get to wear a watch that I rarely see on wrists.

that being said, i will still keep my waitlist spots for specific rolex references i want, but still considering what other pams I could add to the collection.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

Everybody knows what a Rolex is,Nobody knows what a Panerai is....End Thread.

You buy a Rolex because other know what it is?
I guess AP and PP are also off the table because those are not easily recognized as well.

I would loved to have JJ address this but I’ll bo my best.
Here is where a WIS enthusiast would say that you don’t buy watches for others or that most enthusiast brands find anonymity a superlative outside the watch community as they don’t need to be easily recognized.

[TswaneNguni]

Originally Posted by Mystro

Thanks. It’s literally a game changer in my collection. I think the thinness of the cal.9010 and Carbotech material give it perfect large watch proportions yet light weight with unscratchabiliy.
I have had it on 6 dives already. I banged it off a bridge pier 15’ underwater and not a mark. It looks brand new still. All the advantages of ceramic with the strength of steel.

Correct.My PAM 292J is absolutely like new.It does not scratch.Period

[Bostonbert]

Originally Posted by manh3

Not everyone can rock a 44mm plus Panerai. Only so many folks with 7.5 plus wrist with disposable income in the world you can sell a watch too

True, plus as prices become ridiculous buyers that would wear the thing start disappearing and only the safe stuffing speculators remain, eventually these also disappear when they realize their investments are illiquid.

[TswaneNguni]

Originally Posted by easterbunny

i'm kinda glad the pam bubble popped. i just bought one with a decent discount and get to wear a watch that I rarely see on wrists.

that being said, i will still keep my waitlist spots for specific rolex references i want, but still considering what other pams I could add to the collection.

The sought after models are as expensive as ever .

[Michigan_State]

Let’s see. Seems like Rolex is choking the market and to be honest, their variety/base designs are also quite plain. I could see things going a similar way for them. As they say, history doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes

[toneafficianado]

Originally Posted by Mystro

3 decade of Rolex ownership and I’ll be brutally honest with my own reality check.
I would say Rolex is making their own mistakes in different ways and they could be far worse for the owner.
I could care less how “desirable” a watch is as that isn’t my motive as a enthusiast to buy so take that away from Rolex and what are we left with??? A wildly overpriced factory watch that can’t be purchased or even handled at a Rolex authorized dealer.
Availability or (lack of) is tolerated for a short period of time but once it goes beyond a short time frame the lack of inventory will push away the enthusiast and the affluent customer that just wants a nice watch to wear. The AD’s have even taken a piece of your integrity suggesting you need to purchase 2 watches you don’t want for the chance to buy one that you do want at full msrp.

So now the Rolex market is left with commodity watch flippers trying to make a quick score at the expense of those that buy watches to wear. The new buyers main talking points when it comes to Rolex is only how hard the watch is to get or how much over msrp the watch is selling for. They are not watch enthusiast nor does it reflect on the product itself. The only one happily pulling the strings is Rolex. The customer now has no power with any aspect of their watch from purchasing to servicing. The Rolex dictatorship has made me very uncomfortable for years as a owner.

When Rolex decides to make other radical changes like possibly swapping out movements instead of servicing them at service centers the owner will be left with no recourse.
Rolex freely admits it has no responsibility to carry parts for discontinued movements so forget about handing down that 50 year old Rolex to a family member. Only a decade back, the independent watchmakers had access to parts to keep these old beautiful Rolex watches up and running indefinitely. Those days are gone.
There are a lot of other wonderful watch brands out their you can actually purchase that admittedly not so heavily controlled so you have to accept the advantages and disadvantages that goes along with it.

If/when the house of Rolex cards falls, it will be monumentally horrific as too much of Rolex are artificially controlled unlike other manufactures where the free market has more of a hand in their future. Rolex feels too much like the housing market a decade back in its artificial value and desirability.
As a owner, I am much more concerned with being caught in a servicing dilemma down the road.

Incredible insight here! Scary about the fact that the independent repairers can no longer access parts . I've had that happen with my favourite watch repairer here in Sydney already.His hands are now tied, Rolex wise.

[gtnator]

Originally Posted by ArtNouveau

I've owned three PAMs over the years, none currently. I still like them but I was soured circa 2012 or so by some of the things that are similar to today's Rolex market.
Basically cool products that the average Joe will never have a chance to buy at MSRP. I went to a Paneristi gathering in NJ around then while on a NY vacation. Most there had every one of the hot pieces which they got by buying ALL of them from their boutique/dealer buddy. Sound familiar? I hope the day returns when most models can be purchased by an average customer within a reasonable timeframe.

My sentiments exactly


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[easterbunny]

Originally Posted by TswaneNguni

The sought after models are as expensive as ever .

fair. i guess im ok with the non sought after models (312, specifically). was easier to buy/negotiate than a milgauss. i think my point is the same regardless of there still being "hot" pams