Best mid to high end moon phase watches?

[Vipes]

I had the first generation Lange 1 MP in PT and it was really nice. Only issue was it was a little too monotone. I really like the new version with the black dial new Moonphase with AM/PM function.

[CFR]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Oh I agree. I do think there’s a number of voices in the collector community that have pointed out the newer auto movement as being not as nice as the older sax-o-mat. I also remember a lengthy discussion on Watchprosite. Doesnt make the Saxonia unworthy - not at all. Great watch at a great price point. Just thought to add that perspective for full transparency.

Concur with everything said here.

A few thoughts.

First, when it comes to buying decisions, I take everything I read with a grain of salt. I read the articles for background info -- mostly because they're fun to read -- but I don't make buying decisions based upon them. I make buying decisions based upon conversations with others who've owned a particular watch before, ideally for a long time, if I can find such a person.

Second, I think the "problem" with the newer Saxonia movement is that us longtime enthusiasts were spoiled by the astounding, superlative, Sax-0-Mat automatic movement. The look of that micro-rotor is to die for. Helmut Geyer's masterpiece. What could possibly compare? I think a lot of us would've received the newer Saxonia movement more favorably if we had never seen the older Sax-0-Mat movement.

Third, while I love the look of Lange's gold chatons, many Lange movements don't have any (or have very few). Click the "movements" tab on this spreadsheet and see the "chatons" column for reference. And here is more info about Lange's choice to not use precious metal in certain rotors, posted elsewhere by Peter Chong in 2011 (edited for clarity):

"Regarding the rotor in the new self-winding movement: The motivation for the replacement of the 21k rotor with one gold plated is not an exercise in cost saving, otherwise probably the platinum would have been substituted as well. And as has been pointed out, the amount of gold used is so small, the cost differential with the base metal used is inconsequential.

[It] is due to the need for rigidity. Gold, especially 21k gold used in the original Langematics are very soft, and when used in a very thin arrangement like they are for the new Automatic as well as for the Daymatic, it is prone to being stretched when large forces are applied to it. The watch experiences these large forces everytime you move your hand swiftly. Plus, Herr Schlenker at the lab does a hammer test with 5000 G (I have shown pictures of this test before) and with a malleable metal like 21k gold, it would be forced out of shape and render the rotor useless. Hence a more rigid and physically stable metal needed to be used.

In the Lange 1 Daymatic the inner part was copper-beryllium, then there was a gold segment, and outside the platinum weight. Already here copper-beryllium has been used for better stability and stiffness in relation to the big size of the central rotor.

The rotor in the new Saxonia self-winding caliber is even thinner and there is less space (or height) for screwing and connecting the segments. And it was decided to use ARCAP for technical reasons. ARCAP is an alloy very close to German silver (only 2% difference within the ingredients)."

Fourth, if you're looking at preowned models, remember that there are two different Lange 1 movements. Personally I like the Gen1 movements. They're much more aesthetically pleasing, with the two sub-bridges.

Fifth, once you've narrowed down your choice, feel free to come back and ask more questions.

Last, here are some favorite Lange moonphase model pics (none current production). You can see some real variety in how Lange has depicted the moon in different models. None of these pics show the newer models with the day-night indicator, which a lot of people like.











And here's the Sax-0-Mat movement from the side -- just spectacular:

[JSolution]

Originally Posted by CFR

Concur with everything said here.

A few thoughts.

First, when it comes to buying decisions, I take everything I read with a grain of salt. I read the articles for background info -- mostly because they're fun to read -- but I don't make buying decisions based upon them. I make buying decisions based upon conversations with others who've owned a particular watch before, ideally for a long time, if I can find such a person.

Second, I think the "problem" with the newer Saxonia movement is that us longtime enthusiasts were spoiled by the astounding, superlative, Sax-0-Mat automatic movement. The look of that micro-rotor is to die for. Helmut Geyer's masterpiece. What could possibly compare? I think a lot of us would've received the newer Saxonia movement more favorably if we had never seen the older Sax-0-Mat movement.

Third, while I love the look of Lange's gold chatons, many Lange movements don't have any (or have very few). Click the "movements" tab on this spreadsheet and see the "chatons" column for reference. And here is more info about Lange's choice to not use precious metal in certain rotors, posted elsewhere by Peter Chong in 2011 (edited for clarity):

"Regarding the rotor in the new self-winding movement: The motivation for the replacement of the 21k rotor with one gold plated is not an exercise in cost saving, otherwise probably the platinum would have been substituted as well. And as has been pointed out, the amount of gold used is so small, the cost differential with the base metal used is inconsequential.

[It] is due to the need for rigidity. Gold, especially 21k gold used in the original Langematics are very soft, and when used in a very thin arrangement like they are for the new Automatic as well as for the Daymatic, it is prone to being stretched when large forces are applied to it. The watch experiences these large forces everytime you move your hand swiftly. Plus, Herr Schlenker at the lab does a hammer test with 5000 G (I have shown pictures of this test before) and with a malleable metal like 21k gold, it would be forced out of shape and render the rotor useless. Hence a more rigid and physically stable metal needed to be used.

In the Lange 1 Daymatic the inner part was copper-beryllium, then there was a gold segment, and outside the platinum weight. Already here copper-beryllium has been used for better stability and stiffness in relation to the big size of the central rotor.

The rotor in the new Saxonia self-winding caliber is even thinner and there is less space (or height) for screwing and connecting the segments. And it was decided to use ARCAP for technical reasons. ARCAP is an alloy very close to German silver (only 2% difference within the ingredients)."

Fourth, if you're looking at preowned models, remember that there are two different Lange 1 movements. Personally I like the Gen1 movements. They're much more aesthetically pleasing, with the two sub-bridges.

Fifth, once you've narrowed down your choice, feel free to come back and ask more questions.

Last, here are some favorite Lange moonphase model pics (none current production). You can see some real variety in how Lange has depicted the moon in different models. None of these pics show the newer models with the day-night indicator, which a lot of people like.











And here's the Sax-0-Mat movement from the side -- just spectacular:

What a fantastic post thanks for the detailed information.

Everyone who has contributed has really helped me and I’m quite set on a lange now - and certainly will be back with some more questions.

Great to get some perspective from owners and enthusiasts here and it’s the little details that have been mentioned that are really decisions makers for me and stuff you wouldn’t find out anywhere else

I need a day trip to London to try some of these models on now which in itself can be very difficult - I’m finding this problem much more when stepping into these other top tier brands — you can find numerous of each and every Rolex model in many dealers, but when it comes to VC,PP, and Lange my personal experience has been they’re very difficult to locate even in secondary market dealers.

[calebb90]

Originally Posted by thewatchidiot

“Contempt displayed by brands towards their customers”
Oh, I just learned this lesson today and it smarts!
I saw a release from W&W, called an AD I have a relationship with. Put an order in, paid the requested deposit, 2 emails assuring me of the watch. Then a note today saying the manufacturer must approve me “as worthy” I suppose before I will be notified of my acceptance. 2 months for the decision.
Now that’s the definition of elitism. And from a publicly traded company. Discrimination at its finest!
So @mongrelnomoad, I understand without any details needed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wondering if this is more a reflection of Lange’s treatment of ADs than customers directly. Your AD might have overpromised as Lange has been cutting ADs left and right and were restricting deliveries before that.

Stop into or call a boutique. As long as you’re not requesting the titanium LE Odysseus (pre sold to top customers before even released) or Lumen, you should be able to order whatever you like.