You just can't rely on the dealer to tell you everything

[citanest]

Started looking into vintages since in the beginning of the year. The one thing I keep repeatedly hear is "buy the seller" and I cannot agree more. However, I find that most dealers, reputable ones (including the ones on rolexpassionmarket) or not so reputable ones (random ones from chrono24) do not have a lot of patience when it comes to answering all of your questions. Being new and inexperience in the world of vintage, my questions probably annoyed them a little. I also think that they probably get a lot of "how much" questions everyday.

After about 3 months of reading and research, I started narrowing down to what I want, I then paid close attention to the listings from only the reputable dealers. By then, I have learnt how to ask the right questions so I without wasting too much of their time. A good sample that is priced properly is usually sold within hours on social media. Unfortunately, it is a selling's market and the prices on good sample are constantly going up.

While these reputable dealers would send you great photos and guarantee authenticity of the watch, they may not tell you the full story unless you ask. (Just to be fair, sometimes they may not have the full history either). For example, a dealer would say "all originals" even when the crystal has been changed a service crystal. And when I asked about the crystal, they would say crystal was changed to ensure the watch is sealed properly. Sometimes, I noticed the wrong period bezel (not serviced ones) was installed but the again, this was not mentioned in the description. You would think that these reputable dealers would tel you everything but I think just leave it up to you to ask. Their job is to price it properly according to the shortcoming of the watch.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't get discourage at all. It is quite the opposite. Since all the work falls back onto me, I have do my homework before making an offer. I learnt a lot in the process and this hunting experience has been extremely satisfying.

[Old Expat Beast]

I'm sure you speak for a good many buyers. In fact I think your appraisal of "reputable" vintage dealers is actually quite charitable. I wish you luck in your search

[chows99]

Vintage watch collecting is an art more than a science, full of pitfalls everywhere. Unless you have strike lottery, really be careful before buying anything. I learnt the most in forums like TRF and from friends. Dealers, who have a conflict of interest, take them with a pinch of salt.

[waspy1]

I agree, the onus is on the buyer to do all the relevant research before handing over x thousand pounds / dollars / euros. As you mentioned, 'all original' means different things to different people.

There is a bit of a barrier to entry to get over but once you know what you need to know I think it makes your enjoyment out of the piece or the hobby in general that much greater.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[springer]

Originally Posted by waspy1

I agree, the onus is on the buyer to do all the relevant research before handing over x thousand pounds / dollars / euros. As you mentioned, 'all original' means different things to different people.

There is a bit of a barrier to entry to get over but once you know what you need to know I think it makes your enjoyment out of the piece or the hobby in general that much greater.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While "the onus" might be on the buyer, it is the seller's responsibly to properly represent any watch for sale and provide accurate answers to questions poised by a potential buyer. Not everyone can know everything vintage and I'll be the first one to admit that I fall within this category. Additionally, anyone that thinks dealers or sellers are experts on what they are selling are absolutely mistaken - as many aren't.

I know many guys that have bought misrepresented watches from those often quoted "trusted sellers." There is more BS and misrepresentations going on out there to fill up many pages on any forum. There are more "faux unpolished" watches being hawked to the masses that it has almost become epidemic. The number of brown, tropical dials being hawked by the dealers is a recent phenomenon and is laughable. Fake cases, fake dials, fake movements...the list goes on and on.

So no, the onus isn't on the buyer, it is on the seller. Buyers should have some general knowledge regarding their intended purchase but most buyers certainly and definitely aren't experts.

[sensui]

I've dealt with my share of vendors on trf...definitely some are better than others in terms of representing the watch/answering questions. On something like vintage I do relate with them on representation because there's just too many minute details to cover in an ad. It is up to the buyer to do their research/due diligence but I also find certain sellers don't like too many questions....IMO this is what separates the good and the average sellers here...willingness to answer questions that are legitimate (not silly ones like can one dive with it or for sellers to count up total hairline scratches). But people getting into vintage have to understand....the harder you look at it and closer you do...you'll always find something....what needs to be understood is these are 30+ year old watches and expectations need to be in check reasonably.

I do tend to be more forgiving in vintage dealers because IMO there are certain things not easy to catch...a good buddy of mine that's been collecting for a long time told be you don't need a college degree/PhD to be a watch dealer....most definitely true and while some may be knowledgeable...the way Rolex vintage is without solid proof/documentation on the history except for internet data compilations gives way to a lot of leeway for sellers IMO...make your own decisions as a buyer and make sure you do the research.

[Amex4711]

great post
I agree 100% of your description and can imagine what you are thinking about, the same problem as mine last year !! You must do a lot of homework before, otherwise you lost a lot of money.

I know some dealers on RPM in europe and they have not the best Reputation

Originally Posted by citanest

Started looking into vintages since in the beginning of the year. The one thing I keep repeatedly hear is "buy the seller" and I cannot agree more. However, I find that most dealers, reputable ones (including the ones on rolexpassionmarket) or not so reputable ones (random ones from chrono24) do not have a lot of patience when it comes to answering all of your questions. Being new and inexperience in the world of vintage, my questions probably annoyed them a little. I also think that they probably get a lot of "how much" questions everyday.

After about 3 months of reading and research, I started narrowing down to what I want, I then paid close attention to the listings from only the reputable dealers. By then, I have learnt how to ask the right questions so I without wasting too much of their time. A good sample that is priced properly is usually sold within hours on social media. Unfortunately, it is a selling's market and the prices on good sample are constantly going up.

While these reputable dealers would send you great photos and guarantee authenticity of the watch, they may not tell you the full story unless you ask. (Just to be fair, sometimes they may not have the full history either). For example, a dealer would say "all originals" even when the crystal has been changed a service crystal. And when I asked about the crystal, they would say crystal was changed to ensure the watch is sealed properly. Sometimes, I noticed the wrong period bezel (not serviced ones) was installed but the again, this was not mentioned in the description. You would think that these reputable dealers would tel you everything but I think just leave it up to you to ask. Their job is to price it properly according to the shortcoming of the watch.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't get discourage at all. It is quite the opposite. Since all the work falls back onto me, I have do my homework before making an offer. I learnt a lot in the process and this hunting experience has been extremely satisfying.

[Amex4711]

word

Originally Posted by springer

While "the onus" might be on the buyer, it is the seller's responsibly to properly represent any watch for sale and provide accurate answers to questions poised by a potential buyer. Not everyone can know everything vintage and I'll be the first one to admit that I fall within this category. Additionally, anyone that thinks dealers or sellers are experts on what they are selling are absolutely mistaken - as many aren't.

I know many guys that have bought misrepresented watches from those often quoted "trusted sellers." There is more BS and misrepresentations going on out there to fill up many pages on any forum. There are more "faux unpolished" watches being hawked to the masses that it has almost become epidemic. The number of brown, tropical dials being hawked by the dealers is a recent phenomenon and is laughable. Fake cases, fake dials, fake movements...the list goes on and on.

So no, the onus isn't on the buyer, it is on the seller. Buyers should have some general knowledge regarding their intended purchase but most buyers certainly and definitely aren't experts.

[GGGMT]

Jacek HQMilton has always answered any and all of my questions and been forthcoming with disclosures. He spent more than 1 hour with me last month during my visit.

[GGGMT]

Jacek HQMilton has always answered any and all of my questions and been forthcoming with disclosures. He spent more than 1 hour with me last month during my visit.

[SubKing]

This is a great thread. I couldn't agree more with all said above.

There is one instance I remember all too well of when I purchased a very high dollar piece from a very well known and respected dealer. I specifically asked via email in writing, have the dial or hands been relumed? The dealers reply "no they are all original" I had a suspected feeling one hand might be relumed, the second hand. I asked again specifically about the second hand and the dealers response "no it is just the lighting." So upon receiving the watch, I sourced a pierod correct set of original Rolex hands and had them replaced. After actually being able to inspect the removed hands, I found that my original suspicion was correct, the second hand was relumed with acrylic paint and it wasn't even done well. I punctured a toothpick right through the lumed section and what fell out was a rubbery little blob.

If it was true tritium, it would have crumbled. But I could tell with a loupe from the underside of the second hand before I touched it, that it was paint..

A few months had passed since I purchased it, so felt I should not say anything and just keep it to myself. It was just the second hand and the hour/minute hand were indeed original.

I will never know if it was a mistake on the dealers part or if he indeed tried to slip a fast one by me. I figure if I could tell in pictures that the second hand was suspect, how could he not tell?

What would you guys do in that instance, even tho many months had passed from when you purchased this high dollar piece, would you confront the dealer about it or just let it go?

Obviously now going forward, if I ever dealt with this big dealer again, I won't take his word for everything he guarantees me.

Pic of hand below. Lollipop second hand to boot which cannot be sourced easily.

[citanest]

Thanks for all the input. I just hope that the dealers would read this. I do not think the "good" dealers would misrepresent or say anything untrue. However, most are still far from full disclosure (let alone trying to educate the buyer in the process). Unfortunately, it is a seller (or dealer)'s market and they seem to be doing just fine. If you ask too many questions, they would just sell to those who ask less. The whole point of my thread is to tell others that "buyer the seller" is just not enough. You need to do your homework.

[btinl]

Originally Posted by citanest

Thanks for all the input. I just hope that the dealers would read this. I do not think the "good" dealers would misrepresent or say anything untrue. However, most are still far from full disclosure (let alone trying to educate the buyer in the process). Unfortunately, it is a seller (or dealer)'s market and they seem to be doing just fine. If you ask too many questions, they would just sell to those who ask less. The whole point of my thread is to tell others that "buyer the seller" is just not enough. You need to do your homework.

This is a big issue with the vintage market. Watches are sold quickly just with posts on Instagram. This creates a hype which motivates buyers to rush into purchases without the time for due diligence. Certainly this could be avoided with immense patience and some solid connections with sellers who are not professional dealers; however, I think we all know how difficult that can be.

[sensui]

Originally Posted by SubKing

What would you guys do in that instance, even tho many months had passed from when you purchased this high dollar piece, would you confront the dealer about it or just let it go?

I've ran into this with several pieces I've purchased from reputable/trusted sellers in the vintage game. It's very personal in how one wants to deal with this IMO......I would start by evaluating how important this "flaw" is to you and how much $$ it takes to rectify the issue. I am still on good terms with these sellers because I tend to be more lenient on vintage since I understand the age of these pieces so you'll always find something if you pick hard enough....but I did have to return 1 watch because the flaw wasn't shown in pictures and was significant enough for me to take a hard pass. It is obvious to me though these sellers depend heavily on their reputation so they will take returns on reasonable complaints.....but how willing/easy they'll be able to deal with next time will be up in the air. Just remember like the previous posters implied/said, it really is a seller's market right now on nice pieces.

[springer]

Originally Posted by sensui

I've ran into this with several pieces I've purchased from reputable/trusted sellers in the vintage game. It's very personal in how one wants to deal with this IMO......I would start by evaluating how important this "flaw" is to you and how much $$ it takes to rectify the issue. I am still on good terms with these sellers because I tend to be more lenient on vintage since I understand the age of these pieces so you'll always find something if you pick hard enough....but I did have to return 1 watch because the flaw wasn't shown in pictures and was significant enough for me to take a hard pass. It is obvious to me though these sellers depend heavily on their reputation so they will take returns on reasonable complaints.....but how willing/easy they'll be able to deal with next time will be up in the air. Just remember like the previous posters implied/said, it really is a seller's market right now on nice pieces.

X2 John. Having the tritium fall out, and then repaired, on a 60-year-old seconds hand would not be out of the norm at all. Whether a "dealer" knew it or not is anyone's guess.

[sensui]

Originally Posted by springer

X2 John. Having the tritium fall out, and then repaired, on a 60-year-old seconds hand would not be out of the norm at all. Whether a "dealer" knew it or not is anyone's guess.

Absolutely JP. There are too many things going on with a watch visually and also inside the movement.....as you mentioned, it is a grave mistake to think all sellers are all knowing experts in the field of vintage Rolex.....there are just so many things a seller wouldn't catch no matter how hard they looked. To my experience, the good sellers will work with you on making things right and those are the ones I keep going back to.

[thomaspp]

nothing new here....

[citanest]

Absolutely JP. There are too many things going on with a watch visually and also inside the movement.....as you mentioned, it is a grave mistake to think all sellers are all knowing experts in the field of vintage Rolex.....there are just so many things a seller wouldn't catch no matter how hard they looked. To my experience, the good sellers will work with you on making things right and those are the ones I keep going back to. [/QUOTE]

Bingo. You are absolutely right. Seller will miss. A very high profile dealer (on RPM, here and featured in hodinkee) showed me a piece which he claimed unpolished with a flawless dial. I checked the photos. Everything looks good. We agreed on the price and right before I wired the money, I emailed him and said, "if you do not mind louping the dial just one more time making sure that there are no marks, scratches, stains or signs of refinishing, I would greatly appreciate it". He agreed to check and the next day, he came back to me and said unfortunately, he did find a small stain at the edge. So, I passed and he felt very bad about it and apologized. I am sure he would take it back if I found stain on the dial when I received it but it would be a great hassle especially we are from different countries. I appreciated his honesty and I would continue to deal with him. Since then, I would insist the seller to check the condition multiple times and tell me everything I need to know. Good ones will work with you (as long as you are serious) but again back to my point, it is up to you to identify the flaws and decide if it is for you. I guess that is why it is called a hunt, not a purchase.

[chows99]

Good point to be diligent and insist on louped photos. Trust our very own eyes.