Boeing 737 MAX Discussion

[drumminj]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

IF, I got it correctly, I agree to a small degree, you might be right. But, IMHO, that still does not acquit Boeing of their ultimate responsibility. They should have installed ultimate safety checks and testing, we ARE discussing people’s lives here.

That is roughly what I'm saying. My intent is not to suggest that Boeing isn't ultimately responsible or should get a pass -- it absolutely falls on them, and IMO it was a mistake to outsource and offshore critical work, especially without proper oversight involved (as it appears to be the case here)

I've worked with contract teams that demonstrate great ownership and don't just code to "spec" -- they'll suggest better approaches and ultimately seek to build the best product they can. However, I believe that to be rare, and is somewhat discouraged by the nature of the relationship (being work for hire).

[bayerische]

Ultimately Boeing is responsible, be the programmers Indian, Russian or American.

We have seen Boeings safety culture decline for years. The 787 was a good example of this. Many flags where raised by Boeing employees, but all of them shot down.

Boeing employees (Factory workers) saying they would never fly in the 787. This is worrying. I personally believe the 787 is a ticking time bomb. Too much new tech at once. The 787 is still fairly new, but there will most likely be issues in the future linked to material fatigue. I hope I'm wrong. And I hope there won't be loss of life.

Safety and money (profits, shareholder pressure) go seldom well together.

We're now focusing on the programming, but this wasn't the only thing Boeing did wrong with the 737 Max. The worst thing they did IMO was not educating the pilots supposed to fly the new Max about its new systems. Programming faults are human really, we're not perfect, and our work can't be perfect. Not properly training the pilots isn't in the same bag as a coding mistake. It is straight out negligence. It's cutting corners with a chainsaw.

[Fleetlord]

Was there ever any real doubt that Boeing screwed this up badly?

Most "products" these days are made from pools polluted with incompetence, apathy, greed and cronyism...so why not airplanes?

[Runnin' Rebel]

AA anticipates that the impending software updates to the Boeing 737 MAX will lead to recertification of the aircraft later this year and resumption of commercial service 16 January 2020.

and good luck

[beshannon]

Boeing failed to adequately explain to regulators a new automated system that contributed to two crashes of the 737 Max, and the Federal Aviation Administration lacked the capability to effectively analyze much of what Boeing did share about the new plane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/b...g-737-max.html

The review also said there were signs that Boeing employees who worked on behalf of the F.A.A. to certify the Max had at times faced conflicts of interest.

[VaRobot]

Bumped to follow the thread. I commented in similar thread, but posts here are much more in depth and all relevant points seem to have been made.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by beshannon

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/b...g-737-max.html

A rather civilized way of saying this was a mess from top to bottom, including Boeing and the FAA and the interconnectedness of the two.

Until people go to jail for crimes instead of paying meaningless fines, the corporate and political corruption will continue.

Nobody is afraid anymore of the consequences of their actions.

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by Blansky

A rather civilized way of saying this was a mess from top to bottom, including Boeing and the FAA and the interconnectedness of the two.

Until people go to jail for crimes instead of paying meaningless fines, the corporate and political corruption will continue.

Nobody is afraid anymore of the consequences of their actions.

Exactly!

Every mention of getting this plane back in the air obscures the real problem. That money determines every decision. The airlines should demand that Boeing and the FAA fix their process and find some integrity.

[Runnin' Rebel]

Boeing 737 MAX expected to return to scheduled service March 5, 2020 now

Once the aircraft is certified, American expects to run exhibition flights, or flights for American team members and invited guests only, prior to March 5.

[Runnin' Rebel]

[QUOTE=Runnin' Rebel;10119520]Boeing 737 MAX expected to return to scheduled service March 5, 2020 now..

Once the aircraft is certified, American expects to run exhibition flights, or flights for American team members and invited guests only, prior to March 5

Same with SW Airlines

[Runnin' Rebel]

AA flight tests pushed back with flights runs for American employees and invited guests only - approximately April 7 now. Taking volunteers..✈️ 🙉🙈🙊

[Blansky]

Criminal.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e_iOSApp_Other

[M45]

Looks like this debacle has been great for the A32x neo.

I really have no desire to get on one of these IF they ever bribe the FAA to get them back in the air again.

In a sane world Boeing would go out of business over this mess and a company that believes in accountability would take their place.

This reminds me of the insanely dangerous trijets of the 70s and 80s. They kept flying them and they kept crashing.

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Criminal.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e_iOSApp_Other

Indeed.

I really hope some justice will be served. If these two crashes had happened in the US, things would be much different.

[Bluside]

Originally Posted by M45

This reminds me of the insanely dangerous trijets of the 70s and 80s. They kept flying them and they kept crashing.

Please elaborate on these insanely dangerous trijets of the 70s and 80s. I have thousands of hours flying the B-727 in all 3 seats. What don't I know about them?

[M45]

Originally Posted by Bluside

Please elaborate on these insanely dangerous trijets of the 70s and 80s. I have thousands of hours flying the B-727 in all 3 seats. What don't I know about them?

I was more talking about the DC-10 before they made all the safety improvements to it.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Bluside

Please elaborate on these insanely dangerous trijets of the 70s and 80s. I have thousands of hours flying the B-727 in all 3 seats. What don't I know about them?

All I want to know now is which of the current commercial aircraft has the most efficient glide slope?

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Bluside

Please elaborate on these insanely dangerous trijets of the 70s and 80s. I have thousands of hours flying the B-727 in all 3 seats. What don't I know about them?

I wondered the same...?

I'm not sure if he meant the 727 or if he meant the DC-10, as you know the DC didn't get the best start, but that plane really became a reliable aircraft.

Also it is quite confusing "dangerous trijets" as if the design of a plane with three engines would be dangerous.

[Seibei]

It does not take a genius to figure this out. They went cheap and they and some very unfortunate passengers reaped the consequences.

Boeing made a bad/cheap choice and it ended up costing them big time. Strangely some responsible still seem to have a job. I believe that if there was any justice they should be sitting in jail, awaiting trial for the manslaughter of hundreds of people.

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Seibei

It does not take a genius to figure this out. They went cheap and they and some very unfortunate passengers reaped the consequences.

Boeing made a bad/cheap choice and it ended up costing them big time. Strangely some responsible still seem to have a job. I believe that if there was any justice they should be sitting in jail, awaiting trial for the manslaughter of hundreds of people.

Right on, this (what Boeing has done) is involuntary manslaughter.

[Blansky]

All it takes is a couple of CEOs going to jail and the entire landscape changes on corporate criminal activity.

Don't hold your breath.

Golden parachute and a phony fine to the company.

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Blansky

All it takes is a couple of CEOs going to jail and the entire landscape changes on corporate criminal activity.

Don't hold your breath.

Golden parachute and a phony fine to the company.

Sadly I think you are right.

[Blansky]

This reminds of me of the GM lawsuits in the 1980s where their half ton trucks if hit broadside could explode. Their gas tanks were behind the seat.

Internal documents discovered during the trial indicated they knew of the problem and all that it would take to fix the problem was an inexpensive bladder inside the gas tank but GM believed that paying off the lawsuits of people burning alive inside the truck, was cheaper than paying for the bladder.

Nobody went to jail.

This is what happens when the guiding principal behind corporations is profit, quarterly reports and executive pay/bonuses.

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Blansky

This reminds of me of the GM lawsuits in the 1980s where their half ton trucks if hit broadside could explode. Their gas tanks were behind the seat.

Internal documents discovered during the trial indicated they knew of the problem and all that it would take to fix the problem was an inexpensive bladder inside the gas tank but GM believed that paying off the lawsuits of people burning alive inside the truck, was cheaper than paying for the bladder.

Nobody went to jail.

Sickening.

[M45]

Originally Posted by bayerische

I wondered the same...?

I'm not sure if he meant the 727 or if he meant the DC-10, as you know the DC didn't get the best start, but that plane really became a reliable aircraft.

Also it is quite confusing "dangerous trijets" as if the design of a plane with three engines would be dangerous.

DC-10.

Trijets aren't dangerous, see 727, but I'm old enough to remember several highly publicized crashes so I remember them as trijets from my childhood.

[joli160]

If I read it all correctly Boeing should be banned from ever building a plane again and the FAA to be dismantled and rebuild from scratch.
Incredible show of blatant disrespect for human lives.
Massive fines are in order to steer shareholders in demanding responsible board of management of their companies.
Choosing the cheapest solution over the technical optimium should end in this industry.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by joli160

If I read it all correctly Boeing should be banned from ever building a plane again and the FAA to be dismantled and rebuild from scratch.
Incredible show of blatant disrespect for human lives.
Massive fines are in order to steer shareholders in demanding responsible board of management of their companies.
Choosing the cheapest solution over the technical optimium should end in this industry.

But this is the game now.

You can't knock Boeing out of business because thousands and thousands of jobs would be lost. Cities devastated with tax loses etc etc

So nothing will be done but a band-aid fine, CEO promises to do better, and life goes on, except for the people who died, who were not even American so - oh well... (sadly that is the thinking).

No checks and balances, and no deterrent.

[77T]

I’ve kept up with this since the first crash and feel that Boeing created a unique problem for pilots. In an effort to avoid a costly airframe full recertification, despite changing the Cg and complicating flying it without massive computer assistance, Boeing went the faster route of treating it like a minor update.

It points to rushing the software system called MCAS (Maneuver Characteristics Augmentation System) to move more control away from the pilots. I believe if they had not done that then the simulators would have shown the new Max would have been unstable.

The 737 MAX's engine placement is higher and further out on the wing than previous generations of the 737, and in some common situations the airplane noses up, the angle of attack goes critical and the likelihood of stall is higher.

But any Boeing lies to the FAA that they find in the investigation would prove intent to bypass safety for profit.

I understand the feelings of people who call this a form of manslaughter. I also understand the views of those who say we can’t shut a corporation down for this.

Now if someone killed 346 people (the death toll from the 2 crashes), I’m sure the death penalty would be on the table at the trial.

And after the Citizens United SCOTUS decision (affirming a corporation is a person with the same rights as you and I), then I believe they can be tried and convicted like you and I.

And if found guilty, could be sentenced to death. A corporate execution would result in the assets and subsidiaries being liquidated. Not much different than CFIT - or a Federal Chapter 7 liquidation.

I’m not advocating - just saying that there is a route to justice for the victims.


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Nobody went to jail.

This is what happens when the guiding principal behind corporations is profit, quarterly reports and executive pay/bonuses.

So it's like being a member of the Federal Reserve banking system / using front-running market algos to trade (Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc) or the Federal Reserve itself by lying to congress and monetizing debt. Is anyone surprised? i think not.

When designing the 737 MAX they took many shortcuts in structural design in a variety of areas. It is far more than just a software glitch. The real question is, when is the next shoe to drop for this defective engineering design... and how Wall Street can profit trade on that info.

[77T]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

So it's like being a member of the Federal Reserve banking system / using front-running market algos to trade (Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc) or the Federal Reserve itself by lying to congress and monetizing debt.

Well one difference - nobody was killed by front-running or printing more money.



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