Grey Seller Practice

[pandrew6l]

Recently I approached an established seller at this Forum , with 10 years of history and pages of positive feedback under " Who is Who ", two very direct questions about a vintage Rolex (68/69) he was selling:

- have you timed the piece
- do you have pictures of the case back and the movement

"No" was the answer on both questions, reason given was lack of equipment.

For the more experienced members , why would a grey seller not open the case before he purchase the piece himself ? How can he be sure what he is selling is real ?

Why would a seller not willing to disclose these very basic information about his product to a potential buyer ?

[tekno]

What’s a grey seller. I guess some people sell NOS Rolex, that’s the closest thing to grey market you will see. If a dealer sells vintage watches how is that grey?

Most sellers don’t need to open watches. I don’t think it’s out of line if it is an expensive older watch, and wanting to know if it is keeping time is a legit question. Try again then move on.


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[Dan S]

Grey seller? If you don't like the information provided by the seller, just move on.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Pandrew6l

Recently I approached an established seller at this Forum , with 10 years of history and pages of positive feedback under " Who is Who ", two very direct questions about a vintage Rolex (68/69) he was selling:

- have you timed the piece
- do you have pictures of the case back and the movement

"No" was the answer on both questions, reason given was lack of equipment.

For the more experienced members , why would a grey seller not open the case before he purchase the piece himself ? How can he be sure what he is selling is real ?

Why would a seller not willing to disclose these very basic information about his product to a potential buyer ?

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've been saying it for years: Many sellers are lazy with photos. I often see better photos of used Ikea furniture being sold on Craigslist than of super expensive vintage Rolexes. If it's a hobbyist, it's a little different because you need the proper tool to get the case back off safely, but with "professional" sellers, extensive and good photos are essential.

It's also different if it's a more modern reference or new watch, but on a Sub from the '60s, I'd definitely insist on photos of the movement/case back.

The good news is that you can go elsewhere with your money if you don't get the answers you want.

[pandrew6l]

Let me correct myself , he is a seller who sells mostly current sport models, with full set of documentation. But occasionally, he also sells used old model Rolex watches.

I did exactly what you suggested - moved on .

[Lgear080]

As a hobbyist I think you’re asking reasonable questions. Neither poses a ton of difficulty to produce.

[1665fan]

If he sells mostly new pieces I could understand why he himself doesn’t have the means to open a caseback or the correct tools to do so....if he got in on trade in from a reputable dealer or source then I probably wouldn’t doubt the piece. I agree if you don’t get the info you want just move on....

[exador]

I think the opened case back request is a little tricky - some sellers will, some sellers won’t.
To my knowledge, Springer has never opened the cases on any of the GMTs that he sells and would any here question the legitimacy of his pieces?

You also sometimes see watches from sellers that they have personally disassembled, displaying the movement and dial in all its naked glory - I would never buy one of those.

[214270Explorer]

Originally Posted by exador

I think the opened case back request is a little tricky - some sellers will, some sellers won’t.
To my knowledge, Springer has never opened the cases on any of the GMTs that he sells and would any here question the legitimacy of his pieces?

You also sometimes see watches from sellers that they have personally disassembled, displaying the movement and dial in all its naked glory - I would never buy one of those.

Yes, that.

I get a sick feeling when I see a photo of an opened watch (unless it is an old antique and in obvious need of service). Who knows what goes on after it is opened. Entry of dust, dirt, hair, compromising of the seal, who knows.

Nope, I would never purchase one of those either, as stated by exador.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by 214270Explorer

Yes, that.

I get a sick feeling when I see a photo of an opened watch (unless it is an old antique and in obvious need of service). Who knows what goes on after it is opened. Entry of dust, dirt, hair, compromising of the seal, who knows.

Nope, I would never purchase one of those either, as stated by exador.

I think you'd need to trust that someone who is selling, say, a $10K-$15K vintage Rolex knows enough protect the movement during a quick photograph. If I couldn't trust that, I don't think I'd buy from that seller.

Still, I agree there are certain sellers with impeccable references/standards that I'm OK buying from without seeing a movement photo, including Springer. I've also bought several watches from Andrew Shear through the years, and he doesn't need to show me a movement photo either, although he usually does.

Most other sellers, though, I'd want movement photos, especially of vintage watches that probably saw a lot of water time, like a Sub, where corrosion can be a serious problem.

[Richard Carver]

There is no way I would buy a vintage Rolex without seeing it with the back off. Case corrosion is to be avoided, no reason to ever buy one with channel rot. Techniques are being developed to repair these old cases but let some other guy pay for that.

No corrosion...



Corrosion...



Be careful.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

There is no way I would buy a vintage Rolex without seeing it with the back off. Case corrosion is to be avoided, no reason to ever buy one with channel rot. Techniques are being developed to repair these old cases but let some other guy pay for that.

No corrosion...



Corrosion...



Be careful.

This (unless I was buying from someone like Springer who I can trust to answer those questions honestly).

[roh123]

And how would a reputable seller know there’s no corrosion under the caseback if he/she didn’t open the watch?

[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by Pandrew6l

Recently I approached an established seller at this Forum , with 10 years of history and pages of positive feedback under " Who is Who ", two very direct questions about a vintage Rolex (68/69) he was selling:

- have you timed the piece
- do you have pictures of the case back and the movement

"No" was the answer on both questions, reason given was lack of equipment.

For the more experienced members , why would a grey seller not open the case before he purchase the piece himself ? How can he be sure what he is selling is real ?

Why would a seller not willing to disclose these very basic information about his product to a potential buyer ?

Correcting my post. I see that you are talking about vintage, not new. Timing and opening a vintage piece shouldn't be too much of an issue. But, it obviously needs a pressure test after.

[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

Correcting my post. I see that you are talking about vintage, not new. Timing and opening a vintage piece shouldn't be too much of an issue. But, it obviously needs a pressure test after.

Which 90% of People who open cases can’t do(pressure test after opening).

[pandrew6l]

Originally Posted by roh123

And how would a reputable seller know there’s no corrosion under the caseback if he/she didn’t open the watch?

Exactly my point, even Trusted Sellers like Springer has to buy from someone , who may or may not be as reputable as himself .

[dbfagan]

Originally Posted by exador

I think the opened case back request is a little tricky - some sellers will, some sellers won’t.
To my knowledge, Springer has never opened the cases on any of the GMTs that he sells and would any here question the legitimacy of his pieces?

You also sometimes see watches from sellers that they have personally disassembled, displaying the movement and dial in all its naked glory - I would never buy one of those.

Springer does have a friend who repairs watches for a living, I think through an AD. His friend has opened the back on several watches I have bought from, and sold to, Springer. I just do not think Springer takes pics of the open case back to put in his ad.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by roh123

And how would a reputable seller know there’s no corrosion under the caseback if he/she didn’t open the watch?

I should've been more clear--I wouldn't need to see the photos if a reputable seller declares that he's seen the inside and it's free of corrosion/movement in clean state etc.

As to his practices, Springer can speak for himself but I've dealt with him enough to know that he knows exactly the condition (internal/external/period correctness of parts etc) of any watch he's selling.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by southtexas

I should've been more clear--I wouldn't need to see the photos if a reputable seller declares that he's seen the inside and it's free of corrosion/movement in clean state etc.

As to his practices, Springer can speak for himself but I've dealt with him enough to know that he knows exactly the condition (internal/external/period correctness of parts etc) of any watch he's selling.

I’m not pointing out Springer. Was just a question on the statement. Usually dealers would have pics if the watches have been opened. Either from their point of sale or from their watch maker if they don’t open it themselves. It feels obvious to share to a customer if requested and the watch had been opened.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by exador

I think the opened case back request is a little tricky - some sellers will, some sellers won’t.
To my knowledge, Springer has never opened the cases on any of the GMTs that he sells and would any here question the legitimacy of his pieces?

You also sometimes see watches from sellers that they have personally disassembled, displaying the movement and dial in all its naked glory - I would never buy one of those.

Did you happen to search the “for sale” section before posting this statement about Springer? I didn’t bother looking too hard, I think you get the point.

A quick search reveals:

FS: 1998 Submariner 14060, very nice, original watch. $5950.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...9&share_type=t

FS: GMT II 16710, R serial, first year production. Complete set.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...7&share_type=t




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[Richard Carver]

I would never question springer's watches. Pride and honor before profit with that one. :)

If you're a vintage flipper I would consider investing in a CB opener. This is an LG Openall, works reliably and not that expensive.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by roh123

I’m not pointing out Springer. Was just a question on the statement. Usually dealers would have pics if the watches have been opened. Either from their point of sale or from their watch maker if they don’t open it themselves. It feels obvious to share to a customer if requested and the watch had been opened.

Agreed!


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[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

I would never question springer's watches. Pride and honor before profit with that one. :)



If you're a vintage flipper I would consider investing in a CB opener. This is an LG Openall, works reliably and not that expensive.

Fancy! I just use these, but they get the job done:






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[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

I would never question springer's watches. Pride and honor before profit with that one. :)

I recently purchased a Sub date 1990 serial from Springer.
He had his personal watch maker service the watch before
shipping it to me. It's running impeccably ...

No doubt there at all... Springer is Top !!!

[goldfixer21]

Originally Posted by exador

I think the opened case back request is a little tricky - some sellers will, some sellers won’t.
To my knowledge, Springer has never opened the cases on any of the GMTs that he sells and would any here question the legitimacy of his pieces?

You also sometimes see watches from sellers that they have personally disassembled, displaying the movement and dial in all its naked glory - I would never buy one of those.

Removing the case back, and the movement, from a Rolex is not rocket science. It isn't difficult to do, provided you use the correct tools. If the case back gasket is in good condition, it's highly unlikely to have any issues with water intrusion through the case back. The crown or crystal are, in my experience, more than likely to be the culprit.

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Fancy! I just use these, but they get the job done:






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Caveman! lol

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Caveman! lol

I prefer to think of it as minimalist yet effective ;)


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