avoiding fakes at grays or second hand

[Njkdog]

so, I'm pretty faithful in humanity, and I am not nervous that any of these gray dealers will try to sell me a fake (it seems like an unnecessary risk for them). What I am worried about, is that they will unknowingly sell me a fake. Is this a valid concern? I couldn't tell a good fake apart from a real thing, and especially not without seeing the inside.
I know nothings perfect but, how confident can you be in spotting a high quality fake?
I do have a specific reseller in mind I'd like to buy from next, and preparing to drop (for me) a lot of money, I want to be confident

[amh]

A good grey would make it right.

(And in turn, they would send their goons to break the hands of the guy who sold them the fake...)

[alphadweller]

Only buy from a watch dealer who guarantees the watch is 100% genuine or will refund you if not. I would run it past the RSC to make sure after the purchase. You don't want to find out it's a fake a few years down the road, makes it more complicated.

[Gab27]

There is some additional risk, although the risk is probably higher that specific parts would not be genuine rather than the watch being an outright fake. If you are buying from a really respected and experienced seller though, the chance of that happening is pretty low.

If you are super concerned, you can always have RSC validate it. I didn't personally feel the need to do that, but it's an option.

[Rado63]

If you are buying a pre owned watch from a trusted seller from this forum, they source the watch from people they may have experience trading with. Most of these pieces are going from the AD to the original purchaser who sells on to the secondary market dealer. The watch usually has all the boxes, books, tags, warranty card, and if necessary the secondary market seller could ask to see the original purchase receipt. Although all of these items can be faked, if you handle a lot of these watches you probably can spot fakes better than most AD's. If you open a watch to look at the movement you need an authentic item to compare to because the high quality fakes are that good. If you have concern send any watch you buy directly to RSC for authentication.

[MSL997]

Originally Posted by Njkdog

so, I'm pretty faithful in humanity, and I am not nervous that any of these gray dealers will try to sell me a fake (it seems like an unnecessary risk for them). What I am worried about, is that they will unknowingly sell me a fake. Is this a valid concern? I couldn't tell a good fake apart from a real thing, and especially not without seeing the inside.
I know nothings perfect but, how confident can you be in spotting a high quality fake?
I do have a specific reseller in mind I'd like to buy from next, and preparing to drop (for me) a lot of money, I want to be confident

This concerns me as well and one of the reasons I cant buy from grey. I would have to send it to RSC immediately just so I can sleep.

[Andad]

Both situations have happened and are probably becoming more of a possibility as we move forward.

[amh]

Originally Posted by MSL997

This concerns me as well and one of the reasons I cant buy from grey. I would have to send it to RSC immediately just so I can sleep.

Well that's why one pays 'extra' to buy from DavidSW in the first place - so you can sleep at night. They're not in the business of selling anything other than genuine pieces.

The real risk is buying from individuals. The 'relationship' with our well known greys is far better than with my AD!

[IamJacky]

I currently have 6 watches, with the exception of my very first Rolex which was purchased from an AD, all the others were from grey; one of them was purchased here on TRF from a private seller, and four others from various local grey dealers.

I too went through the phase of being very concerned and worried after receiving the watch. Before I make a purchase, I always do my due diligence and research as much as I can about the seller, and even then I still felt paranoid after the purchase, because the watch was not directly purchased from the AD after all.

As a result, I've also spent quite some time studying how to spot fakes as well, visited many replica forums both in Chinese and English language; bought myself some loupes and watch kits, and even when I was 100% sure my watch was legit, I still sent it to a local RSC just to reassure myself. Fortunately for me no foul play was ever found.

So, after many years of purchase from the grey, I have come to conclude that if you purchase from a reputable grey dealer, especially the ones with a physical storefront, you pretty much do not have to worry about buying a fake - specifically modern Rolex watches.

The reason why is:

1. Credibility and reputation is the livelihood of the dealer, there's just no reason for a dealer to risk all of that for such trivial gain vs the potential future business the dealer can have. Especially in this day and age when internet and information sharing is so prevalent. One single fake watch, fake parts or anything foul reported on the net and the dealer is doomed.

2. Even if the dealer is dealing with large volume of watches and somehow unwittingly sold you a super clone/Frankened watch, it is still in the dealer's best interest to remedy the situation before the word spreads, because again the last thing the dealer wants is someone out there tarnishing its credibility.

3. Having said that, it is crucial that when purchasing from a grey dealer, you must request that the dealer guarantees its authenticity, and the invoice/receipt must contain as much information of the watch/purchase as possible: company information, sale's contact, purchase date, price, payment method, watch serial number, reference number, how many links, condition of the watch, box/papers/tags, etc.

These are of course just my personal opinion; if you can of course it's always best to purchase from an authorized dealer; there's always risk buying grey, but just thought I'd share my experience regarding this topic.

[SeaDweller50]

I wouldn’t trust an AD to confirm authenticity personally.

[amh]

Originally Posted by SeaDweller50

I wouldn’t trust an AD to confirm authenticity personally.

Certainly not some mall shop like Ben Bridge. I wouldn't even trust them to take out a couple links.

For proper authentication they'd need to open the case, which would mean a new pressure test after they put it back together. I'd only use a Rolex-certified watchmaker whether it's at an AD or independent shop.

[Njkdog]

Originally Posted by amh

Well that's why one pays 'extra' to buy from DavidSW in the first place - so you can sleep at night. They're not in the business of selling anything other than genuine pieces.

The real risk is buying from individuals. The 'relationship' with our well known greys is far better than with my AD!

but I can sell to David SW, my point is kind of, what can he do to make sure I sell him a real watch? and in turn, can I do that for the watches I buy

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by Njkdog

but I can sell to David SW, my point is kind of, what can he do to make sure I sell him a real watch? and in turn, can I do that for the watches I buy

Ask him?

https://davidsw.com/about/authentic-products/

[Guybrush]

I'm sure other people will have other takes, but for what it's worth: when I've sold pieces to prominent preowned sites (DavidSW, EuropeanWatch, etc) I've noticed that it's not like my watch pops up the next day for sale. I get paid right away, but it's often weeks or even more than a month before the watch gets listed. (I should hasten to add: these are always watches I've had for a long time and worn; I've never flipped a watch.)

My takeaway from this is conjecture, but here it is: I think they assume some risk when buying a watch from a random person like me. They make their initial offer, then they get the watch in-hand and give it a quick 'smell-test' inspection, maybe opening it up (if it's a piece without an exhibition caseback), maybe not. Presumably checking the serial against databases of stolen goods. They've handled so many of these, you have to assume 99% of fakes wouldn't get past this point. Then they pay out, because they want the experience to be quick & stress-free for the seller---this is how they capture and maintain inventory, after all. THEN, after that, they move the piece through a longer pipeline: opening it up and making sure it's all totally legit, doing whatever polishing or lite refinishing they do. That's why it take so long to show up for sale.

In other words, they may risk buying a fake to some degree, but they won't risk selling one. Just my hunch, though. But it makes sense: they sell one fake to someone around here---word is going to get around. (Just speaking for myself, if I bought a watch from a gray/preowned seller and it turned out to be fake, first I'd go after the seller to make it right. But even if they did, unless there was some rock-solid story, I'd be sharing the news here and on other forums, on BBB, on Yelp, Google, etc.---I'd want them to hurt.)

All that said, me personally---unless I'm buying a watch from an AD, I'm factoring in the cost of an official service to give me total peace of mind. That could be a significant cost, and a considerable time to be without the new watch, but I just know myself: I won't feel totally at-ease and able to enjoy the piece if I'm not 100% confident that it's legit and that it's going to function well for a long time. I don't care how much trust people have in their sellers--when it comes to a purchase like this, I want to verify it myself. But that's just me. ...I'm going through this right now with a new-to-me Rolex from a very well-established preowned dealer. It's driving me crazy not having the watch (and it's only been a couple days!), but I know it'll be that much better when I have it again, and with an RSC 2-year warranty to boot.

There are a handful of sellers where I wouldn't feel the need to do this: someone, say, like Jacek (TropicalWatch) who includes his own movement photos and is widely considered the leading authority on vintage Rolex, cited in GQ and the NYTimes, etc. I'd have 100% confidence in a Rolex from his stock. But most places---and definitely when it comes from private sellers---the proverbial trust but verify for me, please.

[HHIslander]

Maybe I'm naive and clueless here, but I've never seen a movement on an unauthentic that comes close to passing off as a real Rolex movement. I've seen cases that were just about impossible to discern, but opening the case always gives it away. I'd imagine the gray sellers can tell even easier. YMMV.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by HHIslander

Maybe I'm naive and clueless here, but I've never seen a movement on an unauthentic that comes close to passing off as a real Rolex movement. I've seen cases that were just about impossible to discern, but opening the case always gives it away. YMMV.

I've never seen one, but I have seen scary youtube videos about them: some of the new "superclone" watches (not just Rolex, but many of the high-end brands too, even ones with really intricate movements) are darn hard to spot, even for people who handle such watches regularly. They replicate the movements, not just the cases and bracelets---and these fakearoos ain't cheap: they sell for > $1,500, apparently. They still have 'tells,' of course, and I highly doubt a factory tech would fail to notice. But a layperson opening up the back of his/her watch (which I wouldn't recommend!)---probably not going to be able to tell the difference if it's one of these things.

Back in the day, you're right---the fakes looked like crap and the movements were obviously wrong. But nowadays, it pays to be more careful.

...I think we might be veering into taboo topics for this forum.

[Cheesepizzalover]

I don't think greys would buy a fake. You see all the talk about "superfakes" on the internet but then when you see one in the wild which are pretty much identical, all you have to do is wind it and feel how gritty and garbage it feels like to find a fake.

[Lamontsanders]

The fakes don’t weigh the right amount, they don’t “feel” right when you use any of their functions (winding, date change, etc.), the movements aren’t the right frequency, etc. The really good fakes still have tells. The high volume grey dealers can figure that stuff out very quickly. If you are dealing with a trusted seller with a sterling reputation then you can rest assured what you have is legitimate. If it’s some dude that found the watch after his <relative> died then you can rest assured that you just got robbed.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Lamontsanders

The fakes don’t weigh the right amount, they don’t “feel” right when you use any of their functions (winding, date change, etc.), the movements aren’t the right frequency, etc. The really good fakes still have tells. The high volume grey dealers can figure that stuff out very quickly. If you are dealing with a trusted seller with a sterling reputation then you can rest assured what you have is legitimate. If it’s some dude that found the watch after his <relative> died then you can rest assured that you just got robbed.

This is almost certainly true when it comes to pm watches---I've heard that some of the super-fancy fugazis can get close using various shenanigans, but I doubt they can get it 'just-so,' and the proper weights for all Rolex models (fully linked) are easy enough to find online, here and elsewhere, as references. But for the steel models, I'm not so sure---the scumbags have started using 904L steel. Jennie Elle has a video or two that touches on this.

[Guybrush]

Not trying to be a downer! I think the odds of accidentally buying a fake from a trusted seller are extremely low. But I also think it pays to be really skeptical and careful---the fakes have gotten frighteningly realistic and one shouldn't naively cling to the same standards that may have applied as recently as a couple years ago. The baddies are aware of how hot the luxury market is--especially for Rolex---and where there's money to be made, you can trust that someone with ill intent will try to horn in on it.

[hutch300]

I would not trust some of these newly minted watch dealers. I do however trust DavidSW and the likes. They know what they are doing. When things cost more there is usually a reason.

[chaokuay]

Buy the seller, not the watch. No way a fake passes through an an established grey. Their business & reputation would pretty much be over in an instant

[Kevin of Larchmont]

I’ve intentionally only ever purchased Rolex from an AD. New or used, I enjoy having that paper trail. I’ve purchased Panerai from greys, ironically maybe even more prone to counterfeiting, but the dollar amounts are smaller. I’ve always bought the seller before I purchase the watch. I can’t say whether or not there’s anything to worry about only that I choose not worry about it.

[Nico81]

Originally Posted by Njkdog

so, I'm pretty faithful in humanity, and I am not nervous that any of these gray dealers will try to sell me a fake (it seems like an unnecessary risk for them). What I am worried about, is that they will unknowingly sell me a fake. Is this a valid concern? I couldn't tell a good fake apart from a real thing, and especially not without seeing the inside.
I know nothings perfect but, how confident can you be in spotting a high quality fake?
I do have a specific reseller in mind I'd like to buy from next, and preparing to drop (for me) a lot of money, I want to be confident

This is a good concern
There have been cases where greys sold ( unknowingly) a fake


So, always verify after purchase


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JohnGingerwood]

This is a real concern. The super clones have been sold to greys. They can almost be impossible to differentiate these days. I would be looking at the more established greys, takuya, or DavidSW if I were buying rolex.

[Guybrush]

Yup. It can happen. I won’t be specific here since I’m not in a position to know whether the complainants are right or full of it, but Google “sold a fake Rolex” (for example)—use the quotation marks so it’s an exact search. Among the first handful of results you’ll see allegations of fakes being sold by a major preowned dealer and a huge national Rolex AD chain that also sells ‘certified’ preowned watches. Both businesses are still around and very active. Again, can’t substantiate the claims, but it definitely gives me pause.

Just do your diligence and factor in that cost before you make a purchase. It doesn’t have to ruin the experience of getting a preowned or gray watch.

Heck, if you’re dealing with a business, consider telling them up-front that you’re planning to get the watch serviced by RSC and will pursue a refund if RSC says the watch is fake or adulterated. If the seller balks at that or ghosts you, then you’re probably better off not working with them anyway. (I mean, you wouldn't buy a car from someone who acted all dodgy if you told him you were going to have your mechanic check it out, right?)

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by SeaDweller50

I wouldn’t trust an AD to confirm authenticity personally.

I agree.

I think an AD is probably better at spotting a fake than most, but I also think there is now a stronger financial incentive than ever for individuals who break the law in this regard to engage on their criminal behavior, which means spotting fakes/modifications will become harder. I also think a major issue currently is or will be criminals taking legitimate Rolex watches and modifying them slightly so they appear to be different configurations that sell for more money, which could result in an AD incorrectly saying that an adulterated watch is authentic.

RSC has the ability and willingness to see the movement, inspect all of the individual parts, check the SN, and ensure the watch's SN matches with the reference/configuration that it should be. ADs probably do not have all of this capability, especially the last one. Third party watchmakers would not have this capability, either.

The implication is this, if it is happening, is that more than ever, a major caveat when we tell someone a watch is authentic if that watch is one of the highest demand references is that it really, really, really needs to go to RSC in order to say that watch is 100% genuine and that complete certainly in authenticity probably cannot be obtained by any other means at this time.

[hondacb1002]

Originally Posted by amh

Certainly not some mall shop like Ben Bridge. I wouldn't even trust them to take out a couple links.

For proper authentication they'd need to open the case, which would mean a new pressure test after they put it back together. I'd only use a Rolex-certified watchmaker whether it's at an AD or independent shop.

Bed Bridge is a pretty large company. not just some mall shop.

[MSL997]

This thread is half of fame. Too many good posters to thank. Should be added as a sticky!

[mailman]

Buy the seller. Period.