avoiding fakes at grays or second hand

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by mailman

Buy the seller. Period.

^^^Always^^^

Our most senior TRF trusted sellers like Thanh, David, Tony, Patrick and Chase all are so well respected, I can guarantee their reputations are deserved. They are professionals that cater to the most discriminate collector and know what they expect. They will go way above and beyond what a Rolex sales associate will.
I have done so many deals with them and trust them with a watch purchase (sight unseen) with just their description to me over the phone.

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by mailman

Buy the seller. Period.

+1


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[Guybrush]

One other thing that occurred to me after my longer post above. (Sorry, I feel like I'm over-responding to this thread, but it's a topic that's top of mind for me presently, for reasons to do with a watch I just bought.)

Another--presumable--reason why places like DSW and EuropeanWatch (etc) wait a long while before listing a watch they've just bought for sale on their site is that, in addition to checking it carefully and servicing and polishing, they're also honoring some kind of official or unofficial 'waiting period' to make sure it doesn't get reported as stolen. I know from watching Pawn Stars (yeah, I'm not ashamed to admit it!) that this is the law for shops in Nevada; I'm guessing it's the same elsewhere, either as law or just best practice.

P.S. There was a sad but funny PS episode a long while back when the son, 'Big Hoss,' got burned by several people over a period of a couple days selling him fake Rolexes. Evidently, word got out that he wasn't checking very closely. Pretty sure the show has had other issues (and made its own PSAs) re: fake Rolexes. Guessing it's brisk business in Vegas.

[G23Guy]

The super clones are the reason I wont buy grey or used. There should honestly be a sticky in this forum specifically about fakes. How to spot them, where they come from, weights, etc.

[joli160]

Nothing to worry if you buy from a solid dealer.
Look for the cheapest deal on craigslist and good luck

[Daytona88]

How do the super clones work with the serial numbers on the rehaut and warranty card? I have not heard much about whether they change them or produce thousands of watches with the same (fake) serial number.

[SlideRacker]

Originally Posted by Mystro

^^^Always^^^

Our most senior TRF trusted sellers like Thanh, David, Tony, Patrick and Chase all are so well respected, I can guarantee their reputations are deserved. They are professionals that cater to the most discriminate collector and know what they expect. They will go way above and beyond what a Rolex sales associate will.
I have done so many deals with them and trust them with a watch purchase (sight unseen) with just their description to me over the phone.

Patrick is my go-to guy since he’s right in my backyard. Been to his storefront.

[Calatrava r]

Most reputable used watch dealers will fully inspect a watch inside and out and can spot fakes. It is the little unknown dealers that crop up from time to time, then disappear, with "too good to be true prices" that buyers should avoid.

[Slambonie]

Originally Posted by Njkdog

so, I'm pretty faithful in humanity, and I am not nervous that any of these gray dealers will try to sell me a fake (it seems like an unnecessary risk for them). What I am worried about, is that they will unknowingly sell me a fake. Is this a valid concern? I couldn't tell a good fake apart from a real thing, and especially not without seeing the inside.
I know nothings perfect but, how confident can you be in spotting a high quality fake?
I do have a specific reseller in mind I'd like to buy from next, and preparing to drop (for me) a lot of money, I want to be confident

big mistake

[Bizcut1]

Hard to figure out why but you can actually get banned on TRF for discussing this topic exactly.

So....IBTL, I guess.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Bizcut1

Hard to figure out why but you can actually get banned on TRF for discussing this topic exactly.

So....IBTL, I guess.

Yeah, it’s rule #5:

5. THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR THE DISCUSSION OF FAKE WATCHES, BRACELETS ETC, and your opinion are about FAKE WATCHES and who makes them, sells them, buys them and wears them is NOT welcome.

Hence my comment, before, about veering into taboo subject areas. But I suspect we’re in compliance since this is a thread about avoiding scams, not about promoting them or explaining them in a level of detail that could inadvertently aid them.

[Craigtw]

My biggest issue from buying off a grey dealer would be if the dial had been changed. For instance if you bought a James Cameron or a Tiffany blue OP how would you know if it was the original dial and not been switched out for a more desirable one. It’s my understanding that the only thing that states the dial is the white tag or the the original purchase receipt. Both of these things are unlikely to be part of a grey purchase.

[OrangeSport]

Originally Posted by Cheesepizzalover

I don't think greys would buy a fake. You see all the talk about "superfakes" on the internet but then when you see one in the wild which are pretty much identical, all you have to do is wind it and feel how gritty and garbage it feels like to find a fake.

I agree most decent dealers would spit a fake, but it's naive to think that they all come with terrible movements. They don't.

[S7gpt]

I am not sure but I don't think fakes or even super clones keep time as well as a modern Rolex !

[Laostuh]

I recently bought my Hulk from a very reputable and known grey market reseller based out of Miami FL. I did my research, my due diligence. When the watch arrived the magnification looked a little off, so I did more research and it turns out that Hulks and other watches had some issue regarding magnification on some models.

They of course guaranteed the watch was authentic and I had no reason to believe it wasn't because I couldn't find any other issues with it, nonetheless they offered me a 100% full refund if I was not satisfied. So I would find you a gray dealer that offers 100% money back guarantee. FWIW I decided to keep my Hulk instead of taking the refund.

[csaltphoto]

Originally Posted by OrangeSport

I agree most decent dealers would spit a fake, but it's naive to think that they all come with terrible movements. They don't.

The movements aren't half bad. Somewhat less well finished so you have a certain degree of stacking tolerance issues across the parts as the interact. But they tend to be sloppily assembled under less than clean-room conditions and lubrication is haphazard.

[lear60man]

Originally Posted by G23Guy

The super clones are the reason I wont buy grey or used. There should honestly be a sticky in this forum specifically about fakes. How to spot them, where they come from, weights, etc.

The one thing these 'super clones' cant replicate is the 'feel'. Bezel movement doesnt feel right, crown movement doesnt feel right, even the bands dont sound right. Pictures and sight only go so far, its only when you get to touch one does it set off your spider senses. Grey dealers handle authentic watches hour after hour, day after day so they can spot one fairly quickly.

Do fakes slide past, sure but if it was a bigger problem, forums like this would be on fire.

With all that said, this kid would only buy from a well known second hand dealer like mentioned above.

[Cauhauna]

Originally Posted by Craigtw

My biggest issue from buying off a grey dealer would be if the dial had been changed. For instance if you bought a James Cameron or a Tiffany blue OP how would you know if it was the original dial and not been switched out for a more desirable one. It’s my understanding that the only thing that states the dial is the white tag or the the original purchase receipt. Both of these things are unlikely to be part of a grey purchase.

i've heard it mentioned that dial swaps *always* leave a mark or markings, and that this is easily visible to the trained eye with a loupe

Originally Posted by lear60man

The one thing these 'super clones' cant replicate is the 'feel'. Bezel movement doesnt feel right, crown movement doesnt feel right, even the bands dont sound right. Pictures and sight only go so far, its only when you get to touch one does it set off your spider senses. Grey dealers handle authentic watches hour after hour, day after day so they can spot one fairly quickly.

yep, agree. i'd say there is a near 0% chance a fake gets by one of our big TS

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Cauhauna

i've heard it mentioned that dial swaps *always* leave a mark or markings, and that this is easily visible to the trained eye with a loupe




yep, agree. i'd say there is a near 0% chance a fake gets by one of our big TS

Near 0%.

I’ll go along with that.

Is that 1:1000, 1:2000…..?

[Tanalasta]

It’s another case of “trust the dealer”.

Rolex stipulates the only way to be sure is to buy from an AD. It is possible to authenticate by opening the case-back (looking for the free sprung balance and the general finishing of the movement) as one of the more reliable “tells”. Or to send it to RSC for a service. IF it’s not an authentic piece, you probably won’t get it back :p

For a brand new watch, this may not be something you want to do. Opening the case back yourself may void the warranty.

Provenance helps. A recently dated warranty card and paperwork (e.g. sales invoice from an AD) that has the same serial number as the watch makes a fake very unlikely. Of course, that also means the purchaser ‘flipped’ the watch shortly after purchase. And the sales invoice is not usually provided as part of a sale from a gray dealer as it identifies the original purchaser.

A reputable dealer will stand by their product. We read about the occasional ‘mistake’ and … the occasional controversy (horology house still ring bells?).

Hope that helps.

RSC change dials. Properly disassembled and reassembled it should not leave a sign. That’s my belief.


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[Fritzli]

In a few weeks/months from now a big super clone scandal will rattle the trust in the brand! Super clones produced in switzerland floating since years the international markets with absolut perfect copies - even for a certified Rolex Watchmaker hard to recognize! So this watches must be sold at the secondary markets....

I would never buy a watch from the secondary market without clear provenance, original invoices!

Assuming what is coming even the rumor about Rolex goes Certified Pre Owned makes absolutely sense!

[Cauhauna]

Originally Posted by Fritzli

In a few weeks/months from now a big super clone scandal will rattle the trust in the brand! Super clones produced in switzerland floating since years the international markets with absolut perfect copies - even for a certified Rolex Watchmaker hard to recognize! So this watches must be sold at the secondary markets....

I would never buy a watch from the secondary market without clear provenance, original invoices!

Assuming what is coming even the rumor about Rolex goes Certified Pre Owned makes absolutely sense!

Why would a Rolex watchmaker have trouble? Pop serial number in the system, voila

[amh]

Originally Posted by Cauhauna

Why would a Rolex watchmaker have trouble? Pop serial number in the system, voila

Then no need to even visit the AD - just call them up and ask "Here's the serial number, is the warranty still valid?"

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by Fritzli

In a few weeks/months from now a big super clone scandal will rattle the trust in the brand! Super clones produced in switzerland floating since years the international markets with absolut perfect copies - even for a certified Rolex Watchmaker hard to recognize! So this watches must be sold at the secondary markets....

I would never buy a watch from the secondary market without clear provenance, original invoices!

Assuming what is coming even the rumor about Rolex goes Certified Pre Owned makes absolutely sense!

I must admit that I am extremely skeptical that even the best forgeries could be this good.

To my understanding, the free-sprung balance is something that is extremely hard to manufacture and even harder to properly regulate. Even if one of the supposed 'superclones' with 'replica movements' somehow were able to reproduce the free-sprung balance (which, to my understanding, is extremely rare or nonexistent), it seems very unlikely that it would have the manufacturing tolerances + a sufficiently skilled watchmaker capable of ending with a movement that has the positional accuracy that Rolex movements are known for (i.e., its performance would fall flat as soon as it's placed on a timegrapher and its performance is measured in different positions.) (The movement in my COSC Breitling, which is a very good movement, does not even rival my Rolex in this regard.)

Someone please correct me on this if I am wrong, but, to my understanding, this is something that is extremely hard to do.

[Harvie]

I have bought and sold Rolex watches for 45 years along with numerous other items, I have found that diamonds are the most "interesting".

If one buys the "seller", one pays a premium.

If one does all his/hers/they/them/it/whatever own complete homework one reaps the benefit of lower cost for those efforts.

One always pays for what one gets, the seller for his work or themselves for their efforts.

Works this way for everything you buy.

[BLNR Nairobi]

Many good responses regarding potential fake watches.

What about stolen watches?

100% genuine, but unfortunately stolen from their owners before making their way into the gray market.

That’s an often ignored possibility that only rears it’s head many years down the line when the watch goes in for service and comes up as stolen.

All those stolen watches don’t just disappear. They end up in circulation, will pass all authenticity checks (because they are authentic), and will only blow up many years later.

In my opinion - any modern Rolex sold ‘naked’ (without box and papers) has to be looked at with considerable suspicion. It doesn’t mean that there are not good reasons for no B&P (and for that matter, in a home burglary, watches can be stolen with B&P), but as a rule of thumb a modern Rolex without B&P should be handled with caution.

[luster]

Originally Posted by amh

Then no need to even visit the AD - just call them up and ask "Here's the serial number, is the warranty still valid?"

Interesting, never thought of this before—does it work, in your experience?

[Kevin of Larchmont]

The only talk we ever hear here about fakes and super-clones are these theoretical magical-thinking what-if fantasy threads about the possibility of one of these clones perfect enough to fool either an AD or a seasoned grey getting unwittingly sold to an innocent hard-working buyer. It just seems to me that if this level of perfection was a real viable threat that we’d encounter more specific examples about it.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

The only talk we ever hear here about fakes and super-clones are these theoretical magical-thinking what-if fantasy threads about the possibility of one of these clones perfect enough to fool either an AD or a seasoned grey getting unwittingly sold to an innocent hard-working buyer. It just seems to me that if this level of perfection was a real viable threat that we’d encounter more specific examples about it.

You can Google around and find a few such examples (in business reviews, etc, including the ones I alluded to above), though how credible they are, who can say? What's clearly true, though, is that the fakes have gotten much much better---that's clear from 30mins on YouTube. And while I don't think it's prudent to get all paranoid about it, I do think that it's just common sense to be careful and vigilant and get the most expert assessment you can when it comes to spending car-money on a watch. "Trusted" doesn't mean infallible.

[Bustelo]

Originally Posted by HHIslander

Maybe I'm naive and clueless here, but I've never seen a movement on an unauthentic that comes close to passing off as a real Rolex movement. I've seen cases that were just about impossible to discern, but opening the case always gives it away. I'd imagine the gray sellers can tell even easier. YMMV.

There is 3135, 3186, 3235, 4130 Chrono all 1:1 cloned and able to take free sprung balance from the original.

As a watchsmith I try to keep up with these. I see people constantly mixing parts, and it's quite scary. The majority of people aren't doing anything intentional, most use genuine parts to fix their fake when something breaks due to availability and reliability of those parts. But when you see a Daytona with a 4130 running a free sprung balance and it's fake? That is scary.